New hoses for water drain

[Russ]

The M boat comes with a barbed thru hull on the transom, (well, 'boat' came with one from the factory - not sure if all the other M boats are like that).

It does have a fitting, but it's not a proper below waterline thru hull and if memory serves, it is glassed in like the X on the inside.
I seem to remember a fiberglass fitting the hose connects to on the inside. The whole setup makes me nervous as my boat is aft heavy (70hp motor with 24gal fuel and my big butt) and that fitting is usually submerged.
There is no sea cock to close and it's plastic with a hose attached that doesn't seem very sturdy.

I'm thinking the OP has a valid point to replace that hose. In fact, I'm getting nervous right now. Fortunately, my boat is still on the trailer at the moment.

[BOAT]

Yeah, that's pretty close to the same spot - on 'boat' it's just slightly closer to middle and clearly WELL BELOW the waterline:



And it is definitely NOT glassed in - it's just a regular thru hull fitting covered in 5200 and you can clearly see where my ballast tank starts right under that fitting - the ballast tanks goes all the way from rudder to rudder:



Now, I have always complained about the cheezy way the hose fittings are teed into the barb, but I have always liked the idea that all the hoses go to ONE barb. Only one thru hull in the boat - I really like that. I have also mentioned before that I have already decided on a remedy for this whole scenario. The thru hull set up is great - it's exactly where I would want it and also set up as I would want it - the only thing I need to change is replacing the thru hull fitting with a fitting that has a valve. The fitting that's in there now is easy to remove and replace and there is plenty of room there for a manual valve or an electric valve.

I was opting for an electric valve just like the one I use on the bow vent:



I have plenty of room back there to mount this on the threaded end of the thru hull fitting - and I will probably replace the plastic fitting with a brass one so the metals are the same when they are screwed together or maybe a chrome one - chrome seems to get along well with brass also. It's just another project I have not gotten around to yet - nothing is leaking so it's keeps getting pushed off to the back burner as I work on other stuff.

The electric valves are cheap and easy to operate so I think I will go that way. Not sure - I still like the ultimate safety of a manual valve. Hard to decide.

Bottom line: THIS THRU HULL is THE one you want to deal with - if ANY of the hoses connected to this fitting fail water will come pouring into the boat - you need a way to shut this thru hull fitting.

[kurz]

wow, BOAT has the same cheap hose clamps like mine. My is from 2011 and Roger got some really cheap hose clamps where the srew is normal metal - completely rosty now... But worked fine for 7 years

Who wants rosty srews in a sailing boat???

[BOAT]

Those screws are stainless - stainless is not real good in the ocean air. I live near the ocean so anything I have with stainless will start to rust if it's coating has been scuffed. Of course - the coating on these screws get scuffed up the moment the factory puts the socket wrench on them to tighten them up! So that's the first thing to rust - the part they used the wrench on.

The hoses and screws are not important - it's that thru hull that is important - there needs to be a way to slam that thru hull fitting shut because a failure of ANY of the hoses or clamps or 'rosty' screws will allow water to flow from the underwater thru hull fitting into the boat.

That fitting really needs a valve.

[Russ]

It is that hose material that Kurz wants to replace. I agree with him. It "looks" like vacuum hose that easily cracks. It's probably more durable but makes me nervous.

Thanks for the inside pic. Looks like the factory just 5200 the daylights out of everything. Sub par stainless clamps (yours are rusting away). Not good.


Yup. A proper thru hull is the way to go. This isn't. One thru hull IS better than 2 but not if the single clamp/hose fails. Then it doesn't matter which one sunk your boat.

--Russ

[BOAT]

I would never rely on clamps or hoses - they fail - ALL THE TIME - that's why you need a proper thru hull fitting with a valve.

If you have a proper thru hull fitting with a valve in the first place all your clamps and screws and hoses can rust till the cows come home and it does not matter because you have a way to stop the flow of water no mater what those stupid clamps or hoses do. When it comes to thru hull plumbing on boats the key is to limit your failure points - putting the valve right at the source eliminates all the other failure points into one fast solution.

You could spend all your time trying to make all your failure points perfect and that's a great idea but the first line of defense needs to be that thru hull fitting - without that all your efforts on the clamps and other stuff are in vain.

I myself will replace the tee with a metal pipe tee and threaded nipples with hose barbs. There will be no hose between the thru hull and the tee when I finally get around to fixing this - it will be all hard metal pipe - but that is still not really necessary, because with the tee being AFTER the valve that tee and anything connected to it can leak all it wants because once I close the valve no water is going to get in or out of the boat.

I brought up this entire installation with a full parts list in a previous post like 2 years ago. I will revisit all this when I get done with the shower and the AP pilot piston stop. (So much to do . )

[Nauti Nell]

What about a snorkel type ball valve. I had one on a small sailboat that worked great for getting water out when moving but when sitting still it kept the water from getting back in. I think it was called a Puffer. Made by AMF if I remember correctly. It should be an easy install on the outside of the boat.

[Russ]

If you have a proper thru hull fitting with a valve in the first place all your clamps and screws and hoses can rust till the cows come home and it does not matter because you have a way to stop the flow of water no mater what those stupid clamps or hoses do.

That's assuming you are there when it fails. For those of us who keep our boats in slips, we aren't always there to notice the failure.
Closing the valve would close the motor well drain. Not a biggie.

I myself will replace the tee with a metal pipe tee and threaded nipples with hose barbs. There will be no hose between the thru hull and the tee when I finally get around to fixing this - it will be all hard metal pipe

I hope you document this well. Your mods tend to be top notch work. However, I'm not so sure a solid pipe is always the best way to go for our boats. That area is subject to enormous vibration and trailer vibration. Solid, inflexible pipe might not be ideal as vibration could cause cracks. Then again, I'm sure whatever you come up with will be solid.

with the tee being AFTER the valve that tee and anything connected to it can leak all it wants because once I close the valve no water is going to get in or out of the boat.

Again, if you are there to notice and you notice before your boat isn't swamped and you can crawl back there and shut it.
I always used to shut valves before leaving my boat unattended for the week. But crawling back there is a PITA. I'd still do it if there was a valve. Peace of mind. It is the ideal solution.

Of course, IF you were onboard and discovered a hose leak, a low tech solution might get you home.

[BOAT]

As for the snorkel valves - I am aware of those and they work fine, in fact I have one on the shower sump pump out - but, the shower sump pump out is way high above the water line even higher than the top of the motor well, so that's not really a place that will ever see any pressure. The snorkel valves can fail under pressure and a loop is another fine solution but then of course the loop or even a vented loop will not work on gravity fed sink drain lines.

Really, having ONE good thru hull below the water line (but not TOO far below) is just the right stuff. It will allow gravity fed drain lines and will limit the point of failure.

As for "being there when it fails" well, that IS the issue with boats in the water. That's why the bilge pump has a float switch, and I do have one of those, but really, I would not even trust my float driven bilge pump for more than a couple of days away at anchor while I am visiting folks on shore. No, I don't want to rely on pumps or hoses when I am away from a boat in the water for more than just a couple of days - in that situation you must "Dam the Scuppers!" and "Batten the Hatches!" just as you would do in a storm or any other situation.

Thru Hulls and deck drains leak all the time - when it happens people get mad - Yosemite Sam (and Highlander) have been knows to say: “Blast your scuppers ya barnacle bitten land lubber” or if you noticed the Pequod listing to one side in Moby Dick you would read Herman Melvill describe the beast: "lying along lengthwise in the lee scuppers. Not the wondrous cistern in the whale’s huge head;" and in a John Masefield pirate story my dad used to tell us at sea while he played his harmonica there was this line in the Ballad of John Silver that goes: "Then the dead men fouled the scuppers and the wounded filled the chains,".

He told that tale to make sure we always remembered to dam the scuppers and batten the hatches before we left the boat for shore.

That's why I am sort of decided on the electric valve - I can just flip a switch and close the valve. It would be way better than crawling in to get to a lever valve.

[paul I]

So I finally got some pics

Here is the transom drain...



You can see the leak as well as the excess resin that looks like it dripped down.

Here is the engine well

[kurz]

Those screws are stainless - stainless is not real good in the ocean air. I live near the ocean so anything I have with stainless will start to rust if it's coating has been scuffed. Of course - the coating on these screws get scuffed up the moment the factory puts the socket wrench on them to tighten them up! So that's the first thing to rust - the part they used the wrench on.

Well I have much of stainless on my , also screws. This Roger-Clamps are srews are the only one that do rost soooooo much. Alle the rest off SS keeps fine, even if toched by tools. So I cannot follow your argumentation. Even more, other hose clamps do not rust... So I think is has to do with quality so far...

[BOAT]

Those screws are stainless - stainless is not real good in the ocean air. I live near the ocean so anything I have with stainless will start to rust if it's coating has been scuffed. Of course - the coating on these screws get scuffed up the moment the factory puts the socket wrench on them to tighten them up! So that's the first thing to rust - the part they used the wrench on.

Well I have much of stainless on my , also screws. This Roger-Clamps are srews are the only one that do rost soooooo much. Alle the rest off SS keeps fine, even if toched by tools. So I cannot follow your argumentation. Even more, other hose clamps do not rust... So I think is has to do with quality so far...

That could very well be - I can tell you that those hose clamps are about as good as we can find here in the US - we have those clamps in all the automotive stores and I think every car built prior to 1969 has those hoses on the radiator and the heater hoses. Your right that they are not great clamps - but here in the US we really don't have anything else to use. That's all we got. I have used every brand and bought from various sources and they all 'rost' - I can't find one that does not.

[kurz]

Those screws are stainless - stainless is not real good in the ocean air. I live near the ocean so anything I have with stainless will start to rust if it's coating has been scuffed. Of course - the coating on these screws get scuffed up the moment the factory puts the socket wrench on them to tighten them up! So that's the first thing to rust - the part they used the wrench on.

Well I have much of stainless on my , also screws. This Roger-Clamps are srews are the only one that do rost soooooo much. Alle the rest off SS keeps fine, even if toched by tools. So I cannot follow your argumentation. Even more, other hose clamps do not rust... So I think is has to do with quality so far...

well poor guys over there
if it so... maybe try a Mercedes dealer an look for the part number of your clamp... Even the 31years old mercedes w124 never had a rustet hose clamp... they are/were? all good steinless quality...
My though hull clamps (macm 2011) are even much much much more rosted than yours... well - hold till now, so no worry

[BOAT]

. . .

Yeah, I got one of those: a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter that came to me directly from production at the Düsseldorf factory ...




You are right about the Mercedes hose clamps - This Mercedes 3/4 ton truck that tows 'boat' has hose clamps that look really good even after 14 years on the road, now - if I could just get Daimler to give me a fix for the roof on the truck because the roof is rusting right off the van!

I got a body guy in Oceanside that does wonders with rust - he replaces the rusted body parts with fiberglass. The entire frame around the windshield on that van in the picture is all made of fiberglass - I had it done last year. This year I will be getting the same treatment on the roof. I have talked to the guys in Düsseldorf - they were all really very nice and they all talk English really good so they were able to advise me on the body seams and so forth.



They were really impressed when i sent them pictures of the fiberglass work around the windshield. The guy above is working on a new 2018 model in the inspection booth.

[yukonbob]

Cheap stainless hose clamps use stainless bands and regular steel screws, there are many good options in the US. Scratching stainless does not reduce the resistance to corrosion as stainless is an alloy not a coating like chrome. Putting a proper thru hull on the Mac was one project that I never got around to but completed all on the new boat this past winter. IMO it is worth having a second thru hull and scrap the Y or T in the transom /sink drain assembly altogether. You have three options when it comes to thru hulls, Marelon, Stainless and bronze (not brass). Marelon is susceptible to UV and freezing, stainless and bronze are susceptible to breaking your wallet but should never have to be replaced for a very, very long time. DO NOT buy ball valves from your local hardware store as these are brass not bronze and can contain over 50% zinc and can disappear in short order or become brittle and snap. Also make sure you get your threads correct; Throwing a ball valve on a thru hull (skin fitting) involves mismatched threads and can end badly as well. The below links are overkill for Mac's but provide a great graphic on the first link. The common installation mismatches threads but many production boats come this way and rely on sealant to keep watertight. While the improved installation does involve more parts is eliminates mismatched threads and allows you to replace a defective ball valve rather than the entire thru hull assembly. Second link is for backing plates which provide a flat surface as well as beefing up the hull around the thru hull and can be made a home out of coated marine ply or layered GRP and bonded to the hull where you can decide if you want to thru bolt the base or semi-thru bolt or leave out all together. As for hose you can use anything you want, I've really been liking Vetus' saniflex hose and should be safe for transom drain and sink as it shouldn't see any oil or petrol products and is a steel reinforced and a very flexible hose = easy installation and don't forget to double hose clamp each connection.

https://www.groco.net/products/valves-s ... ge-adaptor

https://www.groco.net/products/valves-s ... ing-blocks

Heres a link to some good hose clamps:

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/hose/hose-clamps