Pop Quiz: stand-on vs. give-way

[DaveC426913]

OK, just a hypothetical sitch-ee-a-shun askin'-fer-a-friend kind of thing.


Scenario 1:
Both vessels under power at 5 mph.
Which is the stand-on vessel, which is the give-way vessel? What rule(s) apply?
Has anyone made any errors?

Scenario 2:
Both vessels under power at 5mph.
Which is the stand-on vessel, which is the give-way vessel? What rule(s) apply?
Has anyone made any errors?

[kingtoros]

In both cases Boat A is the give way vessel. Right?

[NiceAft]

In both cases the stand on vessel is boat B.

Your port light is red for a reason. Consider it a stop light for those approaching from your port side.

[Starscream]

Another important question for sailboats under sail:

Two sailboats on starboard tack: which is stand-on, the one further upwind or the one further downwind?

[DaveC426913]

1. Obviously, the red light rule applies in open water. Stand-on vessel is B.

2. In channel, with restricted sight lines and restricted maneuvering, the red/green rule is overridden by channel rules.

The rules for operating in a narrow channel are found in the Collision Regulations.
https://www.boat-ed.com/canada/studyGui ... 99_115928/

A vessel in a narrow channel must keep as far to the edge of the channel on the vessel’s starboard (right) side as is safe and practical.

If you are operating a power-driven vessel and are heading upstream, all power-driven vessels coming toward you from the opposite direction (heading downstream) have the right-of-way and you must give way.


Vessel A is stand-on twice-over.

Vessel B should have stayed to the right in the main channel and swung wide into the side channel, sticking to the starboard side of both.
Instead, vessel B cut the corner so he can get into their slip - thereby crossing into port side of channel and oncoming traffic.

Also, Vessel B also should have yielded to the vessel moving down channel.


... just sayin'...

[NiceAft]

Example one is open water, not a channel.

[pitchpolehobie]

The more drunk captain goes first?

[DaveC426913]

Example one is open water, not a channel.

Yes. As noted:

1. Obviously, the red light rule applies in open water. Stand-on vessel is B.

Scenario 1 was the baseline (control) question.

[DaveC426913]

• 'Red bow light means stop' rule is overridden by channel rules. Per rules of the road in a channel, B was obliged to stick to starboard. https://www.boat-ed.com/canada/studyGui ... 199_115928] Insteaf, in a restricted maneuverability channel, Vessel B crossed into the oncoming lane.
• Vessel B was so close to the docked vessels on his port that, upon turning to starboard, he was able to fend off the docked boats with his hand. This also meant his view of the channel was blocked until he was well committed. That's unsafe.
• Vessel B was going too fast to stop within his visibility range (what if it had been a kayak or swimmer around that corner?)
• Whereas Vessel A was proceeding with all caution, going slow enough so as to be able to stop within his own boat length.

At least ... that's going to be Vessel A's defense if this gets reported...

[Be Free]

OK, just a hypothetical sitch-ee-a-shun askin'-fer-a-friend kind of thing.


Scenario 1:
Both vessels under power at 5 mph.
Which is the stand-on vessel, which is the give-way vessel? What rule(s) apply?
Has anyone made any errors?

Scenario 2:
Both vessels under power at 5mph.
Which is the stand-on vessel, which is the give-way vessel? What rule(s) apply?
Has anyone made any errors?

Scenario 1:
Neither vessel is stand on. They are only about a boat length from collision. They are in extremis and both should be altering course to starboard.
Both have made errors. Neither should have allowed the crossing to get to this point.
At some point in the past Vessel B was probably stand-on but he should have already sounded 5 short blasts and done whatever he could to prevent this crossing from becoming a collision.
Even at 5 mph this is probably going to result in a collision. Both boats will be equally responsible for it.

Scenario 2:
This is obviously not open water so it is going to fall under the "inland rules" of the country where it is happening. Those rules vary somewhat by country and in the US by location within the country (ex: Western Rivers). Without knowing those specific rules this could be viewed the same as coming around the bend in a river or a point of land. Each vessel should have sounded/answered 1 long blast when approaching the blind turn. The sound signal would have told Vessel A that there was another vessel approaching from his starboard and he would have known he was the give-way at that point and could have acted accordingly.
The direction of the current or the width of the channel can't be applied to any rule without knowing where these boats are. I suspect the diagram came from an exam that was meant to test the boater's knowledge of those country-specific rules.
At 5 mph both may have been going too fast toward a blind turn but Vessel A can probably stop and possibly back up to prevent a collision.

[OverEasy]

I believe the basic aspect of KISS applies.

The RED light ‘rules’ in that Vessel B has the ‘right of way’ and Vessel A is obliged to ‘yield’.
The only exception is if a vessel is moving ‘down stream’ in passage way which does not seem to be the case here as current flow (or wind) direction is not specified.

Collision avoidance default in both cases is to “break (turn) to the right”.


There is an old adage that says “The Right-of-Way is something that you can only give away but never actually own”.


There is another adage that applies “ Most Accidents Aren’t “,
which means one must always have constant situational environmental awareness and avoid getting into situations where an “accident” can happen.

In a marina environment I believe the best choice is to always proceed with the utmost caution and only move to where you can actually see….

[Be Free]

I'm going to use the term COLREGS to refer to both the offshore and inland rules generically. As I mentioned in a previous post, the national equivalent of the US Inland Rules is country specific and generally does not vary significantly from the offshore version. I don't intend to address any of those local variants here.

[begin rant]
The concept of "right of way" does not exist in the COLREGS or in the US inland rules. I doubt that the concept exists in any country's rules but I don't know that for a fact. There are various summaries on the web that use the term, some from agencies that should know better, but neither the term nor the concept exist in the actual regulations.

There are "stand-on" vessels and "give-way" vessels which are required to act in specific ways. The stand-on vessel is required to maintain course and speed while the give-way vessel is required to modify its course and/or speed to prevent a crossing/overtaking from becoming a collision. Neither has rights; both have obligations. Only when the stand-on vessel has determined that a collision cannot/will not be prevented by the actions of the give-way vessel is the stand-on vessel permitted to change course/speed.

Neither vessel ever has right of way. Right of way does not exist.

Neither vessel is required to stand-on into a collision.

Analogies are always fraught with possibilities for misunderstanding and/or stretching beyond a useful point, but it may help to think of a crossing/overtaking situation as a traditional dance with each vessel executing a predetermined, specific part. As long as everyone knows their part in the dance and performs it adequately the dance is a beautiful thing to watch and enjoyable to perform. If you prefer, you could also look at it as shooting an apple off of someone's head. One of them has to hold still while the other chooses where to aim.

Now, on to the preemptive rant...

There is no "law of gross tonnage".

The poem about someone being "just as dead as if he'd been dead wrong" is from a joke that dates back at least 120 years. It was a joke; it was never intended to be anything else.

There is no distinction between those "making a living on the water" and those just "playing on the water" when it comes to determining stand-on/give-way status.

Under COLREGS, until a chance of collision exists you are free to maneuver any way you choose absent other laws/regulations to the contrary. Keep in mind that if you are not sure that a chance of collision does not exist you are to presume that it does.

[end rant]

TLDR: Know the rules, know your part in the rules, follow the rules. Don't make up your own rules. Everyone goes home happy.

[DaveC426913]

Scenario 1:
Neither vessel is stand on. They are only about a boat length from collision.

Scenario 1 was not really meant to take scale into account. But I did want it to be identical to Scenario 2- and in that one the geometry is important, and therefore the scale is too.

You're right of course, in scenario 1, they are too close. I simply wanted to use the scenario as the baseline "control" to root out the "red bow light means stop" rule - which applies.

Scenario 2:
The direction of the current or the width of the channel can't be applied to any rule without knowing where these boats are.

Fair enough. I should have specified North America. I am in Great Lakes.

I suspect the diagram came from an exam that was meant to test the boater's knowledge of those country-specific rules.

The diagram came from me.
This happened on Sunday.

At 5 mph both may have been going too fast toward a blind turn but Vessel A can probably stop and possibly back up to prevent a collision.

• Vessel A was going sufficiently slow so as to stop in less than his own boat length.
• There was no real danger of collision, though Vessel B may not have known that - partly because he was committed to a course that allowed no margin for error in either speed or maneuvering.
• Vessel B was going too fast to do anything about anything that might come around the corner - such as a kayak (which would have had stand-on status).
• Vessel B cut so close to the docked vessels that he had to fend off with his hands. He left no room for safety.
• Vessel B did not observe the rule to "stay to starboard when in a channel" *** - presumably because it would be inconvenient to get into his slip.
• And finally, vessel B was attempting to enter their slip from the channel and was thus obliged to give way to vessels already in the channel ****, but did not.

*** "A vessel in a narrow channel must keep as far to the edge of the channel on the vessel’s starboard (right) side as is safe and practical."

**** "If you are leaving a dock, slip, or tie-up mooring, you must give way to all approaching vessels." (presumably, this applies equally to attempting to enter a dock slip or tie-up).
https://www.boat-ed.com/canada/studyGui ... 99_115928/

[Be Free]

Since you are in Toronto and have cited a Canadian boater education website I will use the Canadian versions of all of the rules.

Scenario 1 (not to scale):

Two power boats approaching in a crossing situation. No other information is given.

Rule 15. "When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel."

Note that this cannot be reduced to "red bow light means stop". Slowing or altering course significantly are also on the table.

Scenario 2 (after additional clarification):

This is first and foremost an approach to a blind curve.

Rule 34(e). "A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall sound one prolonged blast. Such signal shall be answered with a prolonged blast by any approaching vessel that may be within hearing around the bend or behind the intervening obstruction."

If Vessel A and/or Vessel B had given the required sound signal (both were required to do so) and if the remaining vessel had responded as required then the risk of collision could have been avoided.

• Vessel A was going sufficiently slow so as to stop in less than his own boat length.

This was a good choice for Vessel A and was in compliance with...

Rule 6. "Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions."

It was also in accordance with its status as give-way vessel (more on that below).

• There was no real danger of collision, though Vessel B may not have known that - partly because he was committed to a course that allowed no margin for error in either speed or maneuvering.

If there was no real danger of collision then COLREGS do not apply. I'm going to contest that point and contend that there was a risk of collision and that Vessel A (the give-way vessel) properly reduced speed to prevent the collision. I know that further down it is suggested that Vessel B was the give way vessel. I'll address that later.

• Vessel B was going too fast to do anything about anything that might come around the corner - such as a kayak (which would have had stand-on status).

It was stated that both vessels were doing 5 MPH and that Vessel A was going slow enough to stop in its own length. It was not stated that Vessel B was significantly different in its handling characteristics. Was it in fact unable to stop in its own length?

I'm willing to be educated, but I'm not aware of any rule in either the international or Canadian versions of COLREGS that gives any status to a vessel under oars (a kayak). That does not mean that we are allowed to run over kayakers

Rule 2(a) "Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case."

Rule 2(b) "In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger."

Setting that aside for the moment, what Vessel B did discover after coming around the corner was another power driven vessel on his port side. That made him the stand-on vessel and Vessel A the give-way.

• Vessel B cut so close to the docked vessels that he had to fend off with his hands. He left no room for safety.

Poor boat handling which might indicate that the helmsman was inexperienced or careless but not really germane to stand-on/give-way status.

• Vessel B did not observe the rule to "stay to starboard when in a channel" *** - presumably because it would be inconvenient to get into his slip.

Rule 9(a). "A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable."

"Safe and practicable" is a judgement call by Vessel B. Without knowing more about the wind, currents, windage of Vessel B, handling characteristics, etc we can't second-guess his decision that moving to the left side of the channel was "safe and practicable". I suspect it wasn't, but again, it does not affect stand-on/give-way status. Since neither boat gave the required sound signals at the blind corner, both are equally responsible for the results. Neither vessel knew the other was there until Vessel "B" came around the corner.

• And finally, vessel B was attempting to enter their slip from the channel and was thus obliged to give way to vessels already in the channel ****, but did not.

I'm certainly willing to be educated but I cannot find anything in either the international or Canadian versions of COLREGS that addresses this. I did look at the boater education site you referenced. It gives a very simplified and in some cases misleading version of the Canadian COLREGS. It's a good starting point when you are learning the rules but it is not a replacement for actually reading and understanding them.

Assuming there is a legal basis for a boat leaving a slip to have to give way to boats already in the channel (and there may be), that does not imply that a boat going toward their slip has the same status. A boat turning into a slip across the path of an approaching vessel would simply be a crossing situation like any other.

Vessel B was turning to port from a channel to a fairway (apparently?) while Vessel A was doing the reverse. Ideally, Scenario B would resolved into a port-to-port passing with no drama. The fact that Vessel B was going to make another turn into a slip a some point down the fairway has no affect on its status while making the first turn.

Vessel A was never stand-on but it did act correctly by taking off way in order to avoid the risk of collision at the blind corner. Vessel B showed poor judgement by cutting the corner so closely that it had to fend off other boats. Both vessels erred in not giving the correct sound signals at the blind corner.

[OverEasy]

Hi Davec426913

Sorry for trying to simplify…. Didn’t mean to offend anyone …..

(Proper terminology) Stand-On = “right-of-way” (colloquially)

(Proper terminology) Give-Way = “yield” (colloquially)

Glad you didn’t have a collision
The situation was most likely very stressful.

Yes, it would be better if everyone knew and followed the rules.
Yes, the rules are there to avoid incidents, collisions, damage, injury.
Yes, the rules apply to every one irrespective of functional capacity of commercial or recreational.

At the same time we have always understood that there will always be those who will:
- Not know the rules
- Forgot the rules
- Went momentarily brain dead
- Fumbled the controls
- Experience equipment failures
- WILLFULLY DISREGARDED THE RULES BECAUSE FOR SOME ASININE REASON THEY THINK THE RULES SHOULDN’T APPLY TO THEM (like the loudmouth jerks in their high priced P.O.S. power party boat racing through an anchorage back on the evening of 4th of July …but that is another story…)

Our personal approach is that the above items are well within the range of probability and to some extent are going to happen at some point or other when most in-opportune.

We are more than willing to adapt to protect our own interests and avoid damaging vessels or potential injuries by volunteering to “give-way” when we can (we also take names and report appropriate warranted incidents to the authorities without hesitation and do follow up with having charges filed even when the responding officer wants to avoid the hassle and play the forgive-and-forget game)

The old mottos of “Be Prepared” and “Expect the Unexpected” is our mantra and it has over the decades come into play more times than we would have liked.

Again, glad you are ok.

Over Easy