More Honda woes. (Different, but related to previous rant)

[Paul S]

OK...

How much oil should a Honda 50 consume in, say, 10-15 hours of use (or about 6 gallons of gas?)

Ours has gone down about halfway down on the dipstick (not sure if it is half quart or what). But it is a lot, IMO...Even my MG motor doesn't lose that much oil after about 10 hours.

I brough the boat to Wood Boat and Marine (same place as my last rant) 2 time, well, 3 if you count this last time, and mentioned this problem. They said it was 'Normal'. Must be oil coming out of the dipstick tube. But the dipstick is held in very securely. I doubt that quantity would come sneak out of the seal.

Here is the sequence of events:

1) engine overheated (replaced water pump, f*cked up shift linkage)

2) brought it to woods because of lots of oil in the water and on the outside side of the engine housing. Oil halfway down on dipstick after one or 2 uses. Said it was normal, and part of break in, or could have been due to shipping or spilled oil inside the motor case. Charged me $75 just the same.

3) Had end of season service last year (LOF, etc). Again mentioned the oil leak problem. Shrugged it off, again, as 'normal' must be the dipstick tube or tilt grease, or some lame explaination.

4) Had the linkage problem last week. Again, mentioned it to them. Showed them the oil in the case. Normal. Must be leaking out of the dipstick tube.

OK...

Had the boat out this weekend...HUGE oil slick behind my boat. (I know a little drop of oil makes a huge slick..but this was huge and continuous) Got in the water, while anchored, and looked at the motor while it was hot...There is a clear leak in the valve cover, port side.

I took some pics and will post them later today or tonight just to show I am not crazy...I reaaaaaaaaaly want the gremlins out of this motor...

Question (yes there is a question here). Anyone know what the torque setting should be for the valve cover? I plan on checking it myself, or replacing the gasket myself.

Paul

[Catigale]

Paul - I will send you some virtual Motor gremlin remover in a tube for support....good luck getting your motor back to happiness

Thats pretty crappy service IMHO, both in the short term (to get you out of their face quickly) and in the long term, where you know a problem like this isnt going to disappear.

To give a data point, I have never added oil in between changes done annually on my 2002 Mercury 50 HP BF EFI. It just doesnt use any.

The bad news is a leak like this isnt a warrany item usually - the good news is I think dealing with it yourself is the way to go - you will be in touch with your motor and can pay yourself the $75 an hour instead.

Paul - while you have the valve cover off, if you have mechanical valve lifters, it might be a good time to do that too. The service interval for the Mercury valve clearance is 100 operating hours btw.

I have logged about 500 hours on the motor total, mostly cruising 2000-3000 rpm which is how I usually run.

[Paul S]

I have a call in with Wood, to see if they have a gasket in stock, or can order one. I did mention that they looked at this exact same problem last year, and did not find anything...and mentioned it last week.

We will see if they take my hint and fix it for me for the $ I already paid for this repair.

Should the gasket be put on dry, or should a sealant (silicone, etc) be used? It looks like some kind of rubber gasket.

I don't have the service manual. I wonder if the manual will be printed in Canadian?

Paul

[Catigale]

NOt to defend Wood but valve cover leaks can be tricky to diagnose. Of course, a visual should have done it.

Back in my VW (old) Beetle days, which had a Horizontally opposed flat four air cooled engine of course, leaks around the valve covers were notorious - they wouldnt leak when cold, then splooge oil all over your girlfriends driveway when you went to pick her up - usually when there were three NYS Trooper cars in the driveway (pals of her Dad)

I ended up finding Permatex aviation gasket sealer and gluing the gaskets in to the metal covers, then snapping them in place (they didnt bolt, they had a wire bail)

Horrible stuff to get all over the place, but it never leaked.

A rubber gasket and correct torque (no sealer) would be my approach. If you cant get an answer on from someone with a manual, I would torque evenly until you feel the gasket compress then stop, run motor for a bit and check for leaks.

[mike]

Paul,

You must be the unluckiest boat owner ever! Sorry to hear about your Honda woes... as you have already determined, losing noticeable amounts of oil like that is NOT normal.

By the way, these Wood folks sure have a thing for slapping on these $75 fees... do they charge you an admission fee for walking into their store?

I've had my own negative experiences with my local Honda outboard dealer (revolving around their apparent hesitation to work with the extended warranty that THEY sold to the motor's original owner), so maybe they're all like this.

--Mike

[Paul S]

Paul,

You must be the unluckiest boat owner ever! Sorry to hear about your Honda woes... as you have already determined, losing noticeable amounts of oil like that is NOT normal.

By the way, these Wood folks sure have a thing for slapping on these $75 fees... do they charge you an admission fee for walking into their store?

I've had my own negative experiences with my local Honda outboard dealer (revolving around their apparent hesitation to work with the extended warranty that THEY sold to the motor's original owner), so maybe they're all like this.

--Mike

They do have a big sign saying $75 is the minimum charge. So I know what I am getting into..that is..until you expect it to be done under warranty and it is declined ...and you have to pay it.

This is just a totally different experience from any vehicle (boat or car) that we have ever owned. They are making my Audi dealer look good!

We will see if/when Wood calls back if they want to do it, or (again) deny responsibility.

Paul

[Paul S]

NOt to defend Wood but valve cover leaks can be tricky to diagnose. Of course, a visual should have done it.

Back in my VW (old) Beetle days, which had a Horizontally opposed flat four air cooled engine of course, leaks around the valve covers were notorious - they wouldnt leak when cold, then splooge oil all over your girlfriends driveway when you went to pick her up - usually when there were three NYS Trooper cars in the driveway (pals of her Dad)

I ended up finding Permatex aviation gasket sealer and gluing the gaskets in to the metal covers, then snapping them in place (they didnt bolt, they had a wire bail)

Horrible stuff to get all over the place, but it never leaked.

A rubber gasket and correct torque (no sealer) would be my approach. If you cant get an answer on from someone with a manual, I would torque evenly until you feel the gasket compress then stop, run motor for a bit and check for leaks.

I am sure it was not easy to find when I first brought it in. They said they ran it for an hr on earmuffs and it did not leak. But it leaked for me every time. So I doubt they ran it that long. Just a guess.

They are professionals. Lets see if they want to behave like one. They should stand behind their work. I suspect they will be willing to sell me a gasket, but not install it, would be my guess for the final outcome with this issue.

Paul

[Chip Hindes]

This is all very interesting. I know the Marine and Automotive sectors are not related, but I've heard approximately the same story before from a friend with a Honda car. This was some years ago.

Of course Hondas are so reliable they never break or need unscheduled repairs. And that is exactly the attitude the Dealer's service department took. If there was something wrong with the motor, it was because he abused it or didn't change the oil or do scheduled maintenance or it was in an accident or had been sabotaged by motor gremlins or non Honda mechanics.

Unfortunately for them, he had all the maintenance done by them and the records were quite clear that nothing had been skipped. But apparently, without a special note from Emperor Hirohito himself, you're flat out of luck when it comes to getting a Honda fixed under warranty.

I believe it was eventually replaced under the NYS lemon law, still over the objections of the Dealer where he bought the car.

I'm not sure there's such a thing for boats in NY. Of course you're in MA, and with a gray market motor with Canadian warranty, you could be SOL no matter what the law says.

[Mark Prouty]

How many ways can they get ya.

[Paul S]

Got adventerous today. Took the valve cover off.

What a mess. I am amazed it ever held oil at all. 2 of the aluminum distance pieces in the plastic cover were f*cked up....bad It must have been deformed or something. Some hard plastic goop was in the holes the distance pieces were in...spread down to the cover mating surface, and up over the bolt head. I had to chip away at this plastic to get the socket on the bolt head. What a mess. This goop was all in the channel the gasket went in.

That is not even the worst part. You can see how the valve cover was deformed where the distance pieces are. Probably why they used the plastic goop. It also looks like they did use some kind of sealant as well. It wiped up pretty easily (grey in color). I assume this was normal. Not a lot there.

I will (I promise) post pics of all this tonight. I just got in from outside and needed to vent....again....

I do have a call in with Havencraft to see if they will supply me a new valve cover and gasket. Piece of cake to put on. That is for sure.

Paul

[Catigale]

Paul - Im not a legal eagle but it might behoove you to STOP and document the H*** out of everything.

Someone represented they were giving you a new motor on your new boat, and Im hearing enough to convince me someone owes you a new motor for misrepresentation at least.

Small claims would be the way to go on this, depending on what the limit is. Even if you cant get to the cost of a new motor (I think its a $2000 cap in Mass) you can recoup some pride and cash.

Be sure you are charging $75 to your claim every time you fix something they should have done right the first time...

[Frank C]

Stephen, guess you never saw Judge Judy ???

She'll NEVER grant ANY personal labor in summarizing damages. But if you're too inexperienced and you've paid someone else for the labor, it's a valid cost in damages. (The limit in CA is $5,000).

Sounds to me like it would be a valid complaint to deny Woods access on basis that they're unreliable & untrustworthy. However, without a third-party to witness the state of abnormalities, it's just Paul's word versus the dealer's. If the court accepts Paul's word that the damage existed, then they'll probably accept his word that nobody but Woods has ever worked on the motor ... both seem unlikely though.

[Paul S]

OK.....Pictures speak a thousand words...

here are the promised pictures click here

Please note...that I took some pictures last year..have included them on the webpage as well. Click any image to enlage on my website.

here are a few of them:











Can't say it enough times "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME"

Paul

[Paul S]

..

[Frank C]

WOW! I've changed my opinion ... and hasten to add that it is strictly a layman's opinion, but ... the comprehensive degree to which you've documented is in your favor. I'm guessing that no judge will believe that you sabotaged your own motor over such a time span, so therefore, the judge will look either to Havencraft or Woods. Do you have a service order where you asked Woods to check for an oil leak?

(Do you realize the potential liability YOU FACE for poluting USA waters ???)

Since you bought a purportedly NEW outboard from Havencraft, you need to call him into court for selling a "used" engine. I'd try to bring both Woods & Havencraft into court. If Woods was to blame for tinkering with your own motor, you want Havencraft to fight that battle, if possible, instead of you. If the judge buys-off on the veracity of your pix, then they might have to deal with it between them.

The fact that the NEW outboard was an non-USA version MIGHT support a case against Havencraft. It's just another guess ... but the judge might rule that the Canada sourcing, without written notice, violates the USA sale, or maybe invalidates it completely. I'd be looking for Havencraft to either reverse the entire sale (all $30,000 of it), or replace the motor with a brand-new USA version, giving you some basis for manufacturer protection. Absent that, seems to me that Havencraft is responsible.

Sorry - certainly don't intend or want to give legal advice. I'm just spouting the thoughts I'd have upon finding a mess like that under the hood of MY new motor. Good luck, I hope you'll find some better, more competent, advice. I'd sure be hoppin' MAD. In fact, you've taken those pix over the past year ... ???? My patience wouldn't have lasted nearly so long! Best of luck.