Sail Twist - an issue for Macs?

[Drifter]

So I've wasted, er spent $400 on a NauticEd sailing course bundle thingy, to learn this 'sailing' stuff.

Seems complicated.

Apparently I signed up for the super-short and simple freebie lessons in 2019? Mmm. Anyway, as I try to dive deeper into it I'm already hitting a submerged rock of confusion and mild anxiety...

My impression is they offer good courses, but this bit isn't, as it doesn't really explain things and I'm repeatedly failing the little quiz thing... Sail twist, tell-tales, fairleads... I have no idea what I'm doing

Of course it doesn't help that I have never yet even raised the mast on my decrepit, er much-loved old Mac, so maybe I'm just missing a visual understanding. Seems you using a fairlead (er...) to pull the bottom of the sail to increase twist (OK..) and you also pull the bottom of the sail to decrease twist (wut?) because if the wind is port, telltales, something.... stuff.

Anyway, whilst I need to get my thinking-bit around all this stuff, it occurred to me that I don't even know if this is an issue on the Mac?

For a start I believe the 26M has a rotating mast, which would perhaps handle such things? Or not?

More to the point my understanding is not every sail boat has all of the controls sometimes mentioned. I'm still trying to learn what a 'fairlead', but I'm not even sure if the 26X has one? Other sites tell me I should adjust the sail twist with a boom vange. Do I have a boom vange? Vang? Vangs?

So yeah, sail twist and the Mac. Do we? Should we? Can we?

Discuss?

[NiceAft]

You’re worried too much about nomenclature.

Drifter said:

I have never yet even raised the mast

You need to get out on the water in a small sailboat and experiment. Something small that will will let you feel the action of the boat.

I have been sailing for sixty six years. I have been at the helm of this 14 foot dingy.


This 26 foot beauty.


And all the way up to a sixty foot catamaran, and I don’t know what a fairlead is. I don’t know the nomenclature of many parts. I don’t participate in being part of a crew on a race team, or being on a quiz show on sailing; it’s good to know, but not essential. Get the feel of sailing and educate yourself later on all names of parts of a sailboat.

I’m sure there will be some who don’t agree with me. Somehow, someway, get yourself out on some water somewhere and get the feel. Do you know anyone with a boat of any size that you can be on? Learn to identify which lines do what, and worry about their names are latter.

[Drifter]

Cheers Ray, but there are reasons for my asking and general diving into the world of obscure jargon, where the giant sheet things are jibs, genoas, mains'ls, spinaker or biminis, and the ropes are called sheets...

Partly cos I wanna learn this stuff, cos I've never sailed anything before. My previous 2 boats were both motorboats.

Partly cos I need to find some form of 'boat license' but cannot get a local one, cos I'm not local. So I'm eyeing up the idea of the British Royal Yachting Association thingy, so the course I'm on covers all the theory stuff, though I'll still need to log X hours at some training school somewhere.

The other issue is I'm on the island of Borneo, and I can count on one hand the other sailing boats there are here... watch... "Two."

One of them belongs to a friend who has never sailed it and now wants to sell it. It was given to him at a very low price, by someone who had sailed all over and decided to fly home, as the boat was a bit of a wreck. There is some other sailing thing, which the owner also wants to sell.

What I'm saying is, is that no, there are no other sailers anywhere near here, partly because the water is pretty shallow for a mile or so off the coast, plus high tidal ranges that turn large areas of sea into muddy sand, tipping keelboats over, then rising up again and filling them with salty water. Realistically the only sailing around here is a few visiting catamarans during the summer.

The very fact I'm the only white guy around here with a boat, and it's a sailing boat, means I'm guaranteed extra scrutiny. After living and boating here for 17 years without any issue, this covid nonsense and now got the local... boat police? demanding to see your "boat license".

So yeah, much as I would absolutely love to learn nothing other than how to sail the specific Macgregor 26X that's sitting unused in my garden, I need to learn this 'fairlead' nonsense in order to get my RYA thingy.

Yes, it sucks. I'm trying to be positive and pretend it's interesting though

Some googling and stuff have helped. I think I understand the concepts, I just don't know quite what the things look like, how relevant they are to my own boat, and I'm still pretty fuzzy about if I should increase the twist or reduce it. There's a gap in my knowledge there.

The gap is like this:

The wind is often faster higher up, without the drag of the sea. OK. This changes the direction of the apparent wind aft, at the top of the sail. OK... Reducing the pressure on the leech of the sail (which one? Both?) will increase the twist. OK. Tightening the pressure reduces twist. OK. I THINK the fairlead is for the jib/headsail/genoa, and the mains'l doesn't have a fairlead? I THINK the mains'l is adjusted with a boom vang, though I don't know if I have one (or a fairlead?), OR you adjust the mains'l with.. the sheet. Mainsheet. Mainsheets?

Anyway, somewhere among that lot above, is the gap - cos I don't know WHEN I would want more or less twist? Does increased twist increase the angle of attack, because the wind is more aft, or does it decrease the angle of attack, cos the wind is more aft?

Am I making any sense at all?

[pitchpolehobie]

I started just with this document. It applies to our bigger boats too except you don't wanna go flip it the first day out....

https://www.sunfishclass.org/documents/ ... 3_days.pdf

This boOK will get you sailing.


https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/sailin ... 1101877307

Your class sounds better for someone who has a a solid understanding of terms and it doesn't sound like you do yet. This book is great at helping you get started with good diagrams. ID also recommend the ASA 101, ASA 103 and ASA 104 books after but they're very redundant with the Sailing for Dummies book in fact I believe one of the authors is the same. Sailing for Dummies on eBay runs 5 to 20 for a used copy.

[Russ]

A fairlead is a device to guide a line, rope or cable around an object, out of the way or to stop it from moving laterally. Typically a fairlead will be a ring or hook.

I'm not sure what "twists" are being taught in your course. It sounds like you need to backup a bit and get down to basics.

Go to the resources page of this site https://www.macgregorsailors.com/resources.html

Scroll down to Miscellaneous and download the "Macgregor How to Sail" written by Roger MacGregor. He actually did a nice job of explaining basic sailing concepts in plain English.

Then take it slow going forward.

This forum is a great place to ask questions. We are a non-judgmental group who loves to help. Ask away and I'm certain you will get people glad to help you out.

FAIRLEAD

[Drifter]

Well the class is meant to be from complete novice to fully qualified day skipper, able to rent a yacht etc.

I've barely started really. Passed the first 2 tests on sail setting, just very confused with this twist thing, as they show pics of tell-tales (I don't think my Mac even has those?) and lots of words, then a test, before they really cover the effect of twisting.

Cheers for the book link! My concern however is more about passing this course. I could cheat, by just taking the test over and over, noting the answers, but I would prefer to understand what they're on about

Besides, to get the RYA thing I'll need to do a 5 day test thing on the water, so I need to learn this stuff.

Alternatively I could just do a $35 safety course online from America or somewhere, get a safety cert and wave that at any inquisitive locals... but hey, come on, let's do this properly!

I'm actually thinking of splashing out on a set of new shiny white sails, though I guess I should at least, experiment and maybe ruin the originals first.

I honestly don't know if I have all these controls I'm reading about. Which is disturbing...

Ah, Russ has posted...

Mmmm, see in the course it talks about moving, yes moving, the fairlead forward or backward, to adjust the sail.

Does the 26x have backwards and forwards fairleads? Are they even a thing on the Macs?

Thanks for the sailing thing, will download and take a look...

[Drifter]

OK, Roger covers it thus:

"When you watch the tell tales on the jib and the streamers at the rear of the mainsail, you will notice that the top ones don’t always
flow in the same manner as the lower ones. This means that the sail is not at the same angle to the wind at various heights. Wind
blows harder as you go higher, and there will be a different apparent wind (and wind angle) up there. (This is because the friction
of the earth and water slows wind down at low levels.) You may see the upper mainsail streamers trying to hide behind the
mainsail, and the lower ones flowing nicely to the rear. This means that the top of the sail is in too tight. The boom vang controls
this. Loosen the vang, and watch the upper part of the sail sag outward away from the wind. Tighten the vang, and it pulls down on
the boom and pulls in on the upper part of the sail. When the vang is set right, all the streamers will behave the same. Fortunately,
sailcloth is a bit stretchy, and the top will usually sag off just about enough to match the angle change caused by stronger winds
higher up.

The jib has no boom, therefore there is no vang. But you can use the position of the jib sheet pulley on the deck track to control
twist. If you move the sliding pulley forward on the track, the top part of the sail will be pulled in tighter. Move it to the rear, and the
top part sags off downwind. Move the jib pulley on the track so that all of the telltales flow the same. If the top one on the upwind
side flutters before the bottom one, move the pulley forward. If the bottom one is the first to flutter, move the pulley to the rear."

It really does seem a case of if I had the Big Mac out on the water I could figure this stuff out in an afternoon; it's learning about sailing boats in general and all the weird names that's confusing me.

OK, so I've found (with Russ's help) the answer to my 3 basic questions:

Yes, we adjust both sails for twist
The fairlead is the pully and we do have them
Yes the Mac has a vang

And yes, my general understanding was correct - but critically he answers the question the course failed to cover. I've highlighted it in bold - "Loosen the vang, and watch the upper part of the sail sag outward away from the wind"

Right, NOW I understand, you increase the 'twist' to DECREASE the tension up high and let the sail SAG, and you want it to sag AWAY from the wind.

I've been thinking the tension would increase the twist and that you're trying to resist the wind. Seems you are letting it fill up with air while more loose, so you're not creating a sharp shaped blade to cut the air, you're opening it up to catch the air.

I think it's the word 'twist' that got me, cos if you twist a cloth you're putting tension on it and making it shorter. Here you 'twist' by ALLOWING it to twist, by reducing tension.

Clear as a mud.

Side note, rather funny to see Russ assure me you're a friendly bunch. I've known that from a thread started 10 years ago, and now 27 pages...

[Russ]

I've been sailing for almost 50 years and honestly never heard the term "Twist". I'm also not a hardcore sailor which I guess is why I bought a Mac. It's a fun boat, but not a pure sailboat. With that said, I've also noticed the Mac is not forgiving for poor sail trim. It's actually a great boat to learn sail trim.

Advice:

Learn basic terms because they will be used all the time.
There are virtually no "ropes" on a boat. Although newbies onboard we often will say "Pull the blue rope" to simply communicate. Boats have "lines"
The "lines" attached to sails are called "sheets"
The "lines" that hoist sails are called "Halyards".
etc... Learn these terms well because it will make all the rest easier to follow.

It seems the "fairlead" in your course description refers to where the jib "sheets" attaches to the deck. On our Macs these are blocks on tracks up on the foredeck. (next to the cockpit if you have a larger genoa headsail).

I don't have a vang, because I'm not a purist and never bothered to add one. But there is merit in using a vang for "sail twist".

Drifter, I think you got it right. Tightening the vang will pull the boom down and flatten the sail (less twist). Allowing the boom to lift up will allow (more twist). The "M" has a traveler for the main sheet that allows for similar control of the downward pull on the boom. Your "X" attaches the main sheet to the pedestal so this isn't applicable. But if your course speaks to the main sheet traveler, that means the point where the main sheet attaches to the deck is movable left and right on a track.

Okay...if you are like me READING about concepts is hard to grasp. I'm more of a visual learner. Especially when dealing with 3-d concepts like "Sail Twist".

Oh yea, and install that mast and set stuff up on the trailer. You will want to do it anyway, so why not now and start physically touching all these components and see if you are missing anything.

My suggestion is to search Youtube for videos that SHOW these concepts.

A couple on sail twist

[DaveC426913]

Does the 26x have backwards and forwards fairleads? Are they even a thing on the Macs?

Yes. They're the tracks outside the cockpit gunwale and on top of the cabin:



They have "cars" that run along them that you run your jib sheets through.



This is what they do:



The question is why you'd want to do that.

My answer is: I never do. I consider it an advanced level of technical sailing, that
- should come well after basic sailing has been mastered,
- is kind of overkill on a Mac anyway.

[DaveC426913]

@Drifter : what kind of learner are you?

Cerebral: Do you do better with books and theory, learning the names and steps and then going out and trying it?
Physical: Get out and get a feel for the mechanics and then learn the theory behind it?

[NiceAft]

I think the time has come for you to take a holiday to the nearest place where there are several Mac owners.. Australia comes to mind. Beseech the Oz Mac owners to take you under their wings for experience. It should only take you a day to get the feel. It will be like riding a bicycle, once you get the hang of it, it stays with you forever; then you can learn the names of everything, instead of pointing to that thingy, or this thingy.

I’m going out on a limb when I say, we all feel your pain.

[Be Free]

So I've wasted, er spent $400 on a NauticEd sailing course bundle thingy, to learn this 'sailing' stuff.

Seems complicated.

Apparently I signed up for the super-short and simple freebie lessons in 2019? Mmm. Anyway, as I try to dive deeper into it I'm already hitting a submerged rock of confusion and mild anxiety...

My impression is they offer good courses, but this bit isn't, as it doesn't really explain things and I'm repeatedly failing the little quiz thing... Sail twist, tell-tales, fairleads... I have no idea what I'm doing

Of course it doesn't help that I have never yet even raised the mast on my decrepit, er much-loved old Mac, so maybe I'm just missing a visual understanding. Seems you using a fairlead (er...) to pull the bottom of the sail to increase twist (OK..) and you also pull the bottom of the sail to decrease twist (wut?) because if the wind is port, telltales, something.... stuff.

Anyway, whilst I need to get my thinking-bit around all this stuff, it occurred to me that I don't even know if this is an issue on the Mac?

For a start I believe the 26M has a rotating mast, which would perhaps handle such things? Or not?

Yes, the 26M has a rotating mast. The primary benefit of a rotating mast is to decrease the turbulence of the wind as it comes across the mast and engages the sail. It is not primarily for controlling sail twist.

More to the point my understanding is not every sail boat has all of the controls sometimes mentioned. I'm still trying to learn what a 'fairlead', but I'm not even sure if the 26X has one? Other sites tell me I should adjust the sail twist with a boom vange. Do I have a boom vange? Vang? Vangs?

Russ gave you a great description of a fairlead. You may have one or more fairleads. I think there was one that came standard on the foredeck. I'm guessing it was for an optional furler control.

The vang was an optional component from the factory. It is a small block and tackle device that mounts under the boom and connects the boom to the base of the mast.

So yeah, sail twist and the Mac. Do we? Yes.Should we? You can, but you don't have to.Can we?

Discuss?

Drifter,
Sail twist, jib sheet positioning, vangs, cunninghams, travellers, outhauls, topping lifts, etc. are all important if you are trying to get the best performance out of your boat. I'm not giving away any secrets here when I say that "performance" and "26X" (or "M") are seldom discussed in a positive way. Think of it this way, if you were going to run a 5K in your dress shoes it would help to make sure that your laces were tied (but not much).

Put the jib cars in the middle, don't even connect the vang, raise the jib and the main and see what happens.

[NiceAft]

Be Free said:

Think of it this way, if you were going to run a 5K in your dress shoes it would help to make sure that your laces were tied (but not much).

[Drifter]

Quick reply while going through work emails... Dave, I think for this kind of thing I'm a hands-on physical learner. Most of my work is cerebral, but I think harnessing a variable force to power a moving vessel through a moving and variable medium, becomes such a physical thing that experiencing and feeling it would equal weeks of reading!

Even simple pictures can help a lot and your one showing that moving the fairlead/pulley is just changing the ANGLE of tension actually clears up some confusion. I think my mind was presuming that when you pull the "fairlead" backwards you would be... you know, pulling backwards on the sail, and moving forwards means you'd be reducing tension. But it's not, it's just a PULLEY and the actual pulling is done with the line (rope), so you're just changing the angle, not the force. The force is entirely separate and done with the line, not the "fairlead".

Silly jargon really. If they called the darn thing a "pulley" I'd have saved a day of head-scratching...

I'm still not entirely confident at this point but I guess I'll get there. Ask me a question such as 'You're on a port tack, the red woolies are fluttering, is the sail over-trimmed or under-trimmed?" I can't immediately answer, and have to ponder while trying to visualize it, while also trying to remember if "over" trimmed means too loose or too tight (too tight I think).

I recall the rule that one should turn the sail towards the fluttering woolie (telltale).. but again, what does that even mean? The mainsail for example is attached to the mast at the front, so does "turn towards" mean turn the boom in that direction, or the opposite and turn the front of the sail in that direction and the boom the other way?

If you can SEE this stuff then boom, you understand, but reading it, I'm like "WTF?"

[Drifter]

A bit more of a reply - thanks to all those chiming in!

Niceaft, a holiday with Macs involved sounds dreamy!

Silly question - does the Mac 26X have a 'traveler'?

Must admit, I still don't understand this sail twisty stuff.

The basic concept - wind speed is usually fast up high, which changes the required shape and also changes the apparent angle of the wind - I understand. The actual mechanics of doing it however, are giving me a headache...

Tried writing notes and created some flash-cards, but it seems I'm getting contradictory information. This vid for example:



""Moving the genoa car (I presume they mean the fairlead pully thing) makes the sail fuller and decreases twist"

Wait, wut? I thought the fuller, more rounded shape was the twist?

"Moving the car aft flattens the sail and increases twist"

Srsly?

Earlier Russ said "Drifter, I think you got it right. Tightening the vang will pull the boom down and flatten the sail (less twist)"

And I'm sure I've read that in places

Again, an afternoon on the water and I'd probably figure all this out, but learning it to answer the quizzes on my course... jeez.

Maybe I (and the articles I'm reading) are confusing sail twist with sail draft? They're 2 different things?