When is heel angle too much?

[Sundew]

I'm still new to sailing - been out several times in my 22' but I'm still learning. What angle is safe and when should I start to reduce the angle? I really have no idea. I know sailboats are made to heel, but how much is too much?

[Be Free]

I'm still new to sailing - been out several times in my 22' but I'm still learning. What angle is safe and when should I start to reduce the angle? I really have no idea. I know sailboats are made to heel, but how much is too much?

If you heel far enough to get the boom in the water you might break something (or someone). Otherwise it's pretty much up to what you are comfortable with. Just remember that you are sailing a very old boat and act accordingly.

Your boat is a little different from mine in it's design but the principle is the same. The boat will sail best (fastest) when it is "on its feet" (sailing mostly upright). Up to a point you can sail efficiently with an increasing amount of heel but there will come a time when you would be going faster with less sail (and less heel). For my boat that is between 15 and 20 degrees, yours may have a different sweet spot but it's probably somewhere in that range.

Not going much past 20 degrees has the added benefit of not making stuff fall off other stuff in the cabin. You can spend the day with the rail in the water but if you did not prepare ahead of time you will be cleaning up a mess in the cabin at the end of the day.

Cheat Sheet
On her feet - 0 - 10 degrees. Fast and comfortable
1/8 over - 10-15 degrees. Still fast and comfortable. Feels scary at first but very easy when you get used to it.
1/4 over - 15-25 degrees. Not as fast. Stuff falls off other stuff in the cabin. Slight chance of roundup.
3/8 over - 25-35 degrees. Slow (feels fast but not really). Big mess in the cabin if you did not plan ahead. Roundup likely if you are not careful.
Rail down - 35-45 degrees. Slow, wet, noisy (crew is screaming), chance of mutiny. In my opinion a waste of time but others feel differently.

[NiceAft]

If you are trying to get somewhere, I agree with this:

Rail down - 35-45 degrees. Slow, wet, noisy (crew is screaming), chance of mutiny. In my opinion a waste of time but others feel differently.

But, if you have all the time in the world to play, sailing in excess of 45 degrees is exhilarating. Besides which, the looks you get from power boaters as you pass by in slow motion is priceless. They think you are about to flip over. I happen to be extremely lucky, my wife gets a thrill out of it also.

[Sundew]

At what point am I in danger of flipping over? I really don't want to go 45 degrees or more - i'm more of a slow and easy sailor. But I'd like to have a talking point to my nervous crew... something like, "Don't worry, we are only heeled at 20 degrees - we would have to be more than XX degrees before we'd be in danger of losing control and flipping over..."

so...what is the XX degrees that I'd be in danger?

Also - if anyone could share - how many degrees have you been heeled over and were still "ok" with it? What do you typically cruise at?

[trswem]

At what point am I in danger of flipping over? I really don't want to go 45 degrees or more - i'm more of a slow and easy sailor. But I'd like to have a talking point to my nervous crew... something like, "Don't worry, we are only heeled at 20 degrees - we would have to be more than XX degrees before we'd be in danger of losing control and flipping over..."

so...what is the XX degrees that I'd be in danger?

Also - if anyone could share - how many degrees have you been heeled over and were still "ok" with it? What do you typically cruise at?

You're going to broach and round up before you tip over, which honestly is scarier that the tipping. Also, think about the physics at play here. When you heal over, a lot of that air is now starting to slip over the top of the sail, so there really is a limit to how much you can heel. I personally feel start mitigating when we're at 15 degrees. I don't like making a mess of my cabin, and my kids start to look at me nervously.

[NiceAft]

You’re not going to flip over. As stated above, the air will slip over and out of your siail.

As to the angle of heel we have gone to…..I don’t know. Our gauge only goes to 45 degrees. We have gone beyond that many times

Does the 22 have a weighted center board, daggerboard, or a ballast system? I am not familiar with the craft. All are designed to reliably bring you back to level. MacGregor built dependable boats.

As you sail more, you will become very comfortable with this new to you type of boating.

If you do ever get nervous about heeling too far, just release the main sheet; you will quickly level off and come to a stop.

[Be Free]

At what point am I in danger of flipping over? I really don't want to go 45 degrees or more - i'm more of a slow and easy sailor. But I'd like to have a talking point to my nervous crew... something like, "Don't worry, we are only heeled at 20 degrees - we would have to be more than XX degrees before we'd be in danger of losing control and flipping over..."

so...what is the XX degrees that I'd be in danger?

Also - if anyone could share - how many degrees have you been heeled over and were still "ok" with it? What do you typically cruise at?

Without a wave or some other force to help you are not going to flip over. You are much more likely to "round up" (turn sharply into the wind) in strong breezes than you are to flip. The wind can only push you to 90 degrees. You have to actively work against the natural tendency of the boat to turn into the wind under those conditions to get the boat to heel even 45 degrees. It's a balancing act and you have to be intentionally trying to get there. At 20 degrees you are in no danger.

I've been close enough to 90 degrees to not argue about the difference. It is not fun, you are not in control (the outboard, both rudders and the centerboard are out of the water: the definition of "not in control"), and it is rough on the boat. I do not recommend it.

From your manual: https://macgregorsailors.com/resources/ ... Manual.pdf

With sails rigged to the mast and boom, the keel locked in the down position, and the masthead pulled to the level of the water, the boat, when released, will return to an upright position. With virtually any sailboat, it is possible for the belly of the sails to trap enough water to hold the boat down on its side if the mainsheet, jib sheet, genoa sheet, or spinnaker sheets are secured. In the event of a knockdown, release all sheets to prevent this possibility. In relatively calm sea conditions, water will not enter the cabin hatch in the event of a knockdown. In rough seas, however, it is possible for waves to enter the cabin through open hatches if the boat is held on its side. While sailing in rough weather, it is advisable to keep the hatches closed.

With the normal gear and crew, MacGregor boats have sufficient foam flotation to keep the boats afloat in the event the cabin fills. When completely filled with water, the boat will be relatively unstable. Do not remove the foam flotation blocks in the interior of your boat under any circumstances.

You have a centerboard and a rudder, both mounted along the centerline of the boat. These are your primary control surfaces. As the boat heels beyond a certain point they will become less effective and eventually have no effect at all. Where that point is depends on the length of the control surfaces and the size and shape of the hull. I can't tell you where the M22 passes that point but it probably starts somewhere near 45 degrees. By the time you get to 60 degrees I doubt if either are providing you any significant control.

[NiceAft]

Everything Bill said is spot on.

Keep in mind, that before you get to any of those situations, you have the ability to prevent them; let out the mainsheet. You will then spill the wind out of the sail. You can then pull the sail back to engage the wind and start moving forward. As long as you have that mainsheet in your hand, or quickly accessible, you can feel confident that you’re in control.

Until you are accustomed to how a sailboat performs, keep the mainsheet in your hand. You’ll pick it all up quick enough.

[pitchpolehobie]

Everything Bill said is spot on.

Until you are accustomed to how a sailboat performs, keep the mainsheet in your hand. You’ll pick it all up quick enough.

Agree w this. I keep mine unlocked and just hold it til im confident in the sail trim.

[Stickinthemud57]

When the skipper stops smiling.

[NiceAft]

When the skipper stops smiling.

I loved this photograph.

Stickinthemud57, I hope you don’t mind; I made an adjustment. The horizon needed to be leveled. When this is done, you see the real heel. I love it.



Sailing this for 25 years, helped me develop quick reaction to sudden wind gusts. The heels in this dinghy were so great, that I could look behind me and see the entire bottom and daggerboard of the Phantom. And oh yes, I keep that mainsheet in my hand at all times.



Me at thirty


Me, much much older than thirty.

[leefrankpierce]

Simple answer = 15 Degrees.

No evidence or reasoning, probably not true, but it is a simple answer you can use.

[Sundew]

Thank you, everyone! I appreciate the information and it really helps me to understand that I can relax about the heeling and just enjoy the sail.

[Jimmyt]

The capsize screening formula shows 2.41 for the M22. It shows 2.02 for the 26x, and 1.96 for the 26m.

Compare your boat’s value to 2.0 to get a sense of how susceptible it is to capsize. The further over 2.0 you get, the less stable the boat. The CSF for a Sunfish is 3.25 to give you some feel for it. Anyway, my point is, a “flip-over” threshold value would not necessarily be the same for all boats.

Additionally, you need to look at crew weight, mod weight, weight distribution of crew, provisions, mods, etc to get a better sense for your specific case. You can totally destroy your stability by overloading and poor weight distribution.

According to the manual, the 22 is self-righting ONLY IF THE KEEL IS LOCKED DOWN. So, there is another critical consideration for the 22.

So, you need to pay attention to the max weight allowance, crew distribution, etc, and make sure the keel is locked down. You and your crew should all wear PFDs - especially if it gets sporty.

Personally, 25 degrees and up is uncomfortable for the crew, and, as has been pointed out eloquently above, rearranges the cabin contents. 15-20 is more than enough heel to feel the excitement of going 5 kts. I have a heel indicator, but I use the Admiral’s expression to determine whether I’m too far over or not. After all, you’re out there to have fun and enjoy boating - not to scare the living daylights out of the crew. As you are new to sailing and your boat, I’d say 25 degrees would be my worst case value, but try to stay in the 15-20 range. You should be in almost no danger of going over at these values assuming proper loading, crew distribution, and keel locked down (an unusual weather event can knock any boat down).

[kurz]

I think the heel angle is not the main problem as long if you have stable winds.

But the gusts get you mad...