Poll: Sailing the Mac 26X or 26M in blue water.

[LCB]

Hello,

Warternwaves wrote;


"you dont have to trust me on this.....there are times a mac with an outboard cannot make headway with motor down and running 3000 rpm, sea room is the only thing that makes passage possible. We do not have "hurricanes" in the NW, but my mac is not fun even in a gale. ya cant escape, ya cant sleep, steering isnt tough enough, cant keep food down, everypossible thing loose in a cabin beating you continuously, CB banging like the bass from the subwoofers on a rice rocket, all you are really doing is riding it out. "



Been there done that!!!!!!! Never as yet in the Mac. But in a 27' Dufour, (very seaworthy boat), and a 40' Taiwan something, Cant remember the brand, Very little difference between the two. I am quite sure that the main difference between these two boats and the mac in similar conditions is the ability of the inboard engine to maintain a more comfortable heading, over an outboard that would be out of the water half of the time.

This is based on my belief that an average sailor even a good one has no business trying to tend sails under truly bad conditions. Storm jib at most. The danger of injury, or being carried overboard, outweighs the dangers of lying ahull. In BLUEWATER there is seldom any breakers.

Zenos Arrow has answered the question. The Mac can go there, we may not believe that we can, but never the less the Mac. Can. Best choice? Certainly not. But when Neptune is kicking butt, you will be just as scared and uncomfortable, in most anything else.

Russ

[Graham Carr]

A sea anchor is deployed from the bow. This is used to keep the bow into the wind and waves, basically mooring the boat at sea, moving at the speed of the current. This ties in with what water waves was saying. You need sea room, if youre near the rocks your in trouble. If your coastal cursing, you may not be able to run to safe harbor. So then you need sea room. If your rate of drift (with a sea anchor) is 2 knots/hr and you are 20 km off shore, you will be on the rocks in 10 hours, just a point.

A Drogue is an object that is towed astern to control speed and improve steering while sailing downwind. It is also useful when crossing a bar under sail. It is a dragging device. You can buy cones, but in an emergency you can trail a line which would be secured on the stern quarts. This would create a large loop. The more you drag in the way of line, multiple lines, lines with knots, tires and even your anchor secured to a float will slow you down thus giving you control. You will need some weight on the devices to keep it under water and not skipping over the surface.

If you go to sea, it is prudent to practice handling your boat under sail. It is not enough to say I wont go out in bad weather or Ill fire-up the engine and race to port or snug cove. Weather can catch you and engines fail. Reliance on a 50 creates complacently.

I agree with chip on the use of the engine. Plus what if you are already low on fuel?

Graham[/u]

[Graham Carr]

Louis, Do you have any updated link for Zeno's Arrow. I thought his website was down.

Graham

[Frank C]

... I thought the idea of a drogue was to as a parachute off the stern acting to minimize the yaw effects of quartering seas... When that wave hits your butt, the drogue provides resistance. Sort of fighting water with water...

Whereas a sea-anchor is designed to hold the bow into the wind and/or waves.

Exactly the thoughts I had when reading this yesterday, DLT. They hold opposite ends of the boat, in nearly opposite sea conditions. The drogue deters your progress when running with a following sea, to prevent a broach, while the the sea anchor holds you bow-on to headwinds & seas.

Also had Chip's thought about the impossibility of reversing into a seaway. It's nearly impossible to hold a steady reverse course in still water, let alone a seaway. Solely from my reading (i.e. no experience) it seems that either drogue or sea anchor are difficult to deploy, difficult to maintain, and difficult to retrieve. As with most emergency equipment, they demand practice and testing before emergency conditions arise.

ETA:
Oops Graham, guess our posts crossed in the mail w/nearly identical comments.
Also, search on Zeno ... someone just posted a link earlier this week.

[Moe]

USCG Report on Drogues

[maddmike]

Off-shore is something that is in your heart & head. You go there for a purpose that you believe is important in relation to your own existence. Any 'crossing' to someplace that you want to go, but have never been is personnel. The MAC (26X) off-shore has greater risks & challenges than most other boats used for such things and it does require careful prepairation and some modifications, but it also has some huge advantages (less expenses & easy to fix). I have friends who lost better more expensive boats near me in Hurricanes because they could not get out of the water, get to safe harbor in time, or travel 40 miles up some shallow jungle river to safety. While I believe you should only put yourself at risk (not wives, children, or others), nor should you risk the lives of 'rescue' agency personnel, because you decide to sail 'on the edge' (I carry no EPIRB), I do believe the M26X is capable of going most anywhere safely. How far off-shore? I'm honestly not sure; I would have to check my charts, but 600 miles at most so far seems about right. Duration out of site of land? (following a coastline about 120 miles out) 13 days & many times 6-10 day crossings (D.R. to South America, St. Martin-Bonaire, etc.) Heavy sea state? (without going on a sea anchor) 42 to 48 kts. on & off for 5 and 1/2 days. While on sea anchor? max. gusts 72 kts. (once for 4 hrs. & some years later once for 16 hrs). So I guess the point is someone out there (i.e. like me) will eventually use just about anything that floats to go someplace unusual, although it never seemed really unusual to me.

[aya16]

Tell me something madmike why a Mac? I mean with the resources you had to do what you did, and the research you put into the trips, you have to have researched the boats too. It is obvious to me the Mac was up to your tasks but you didnt know this before you started.
Mike

[waternwaves]

Moe,

Thanks again buddy,........!!!!

my 20 inch long, 12 inch diamter canvas bags look terrible by comparison. I am going to have improve on this.

[maddmike]

Keep in mind that going 'Off-Shore' was only part of the initial trip for which the boat was intended. The boat was selected based upon the requirements of its initial intended use; The Waterways of the Americas' Expedition, from the Arctic Ocean to the bottom of South America through the (mostly) connecting river systems. Basically, the trip dictated some very specific requirements. Thus, the idea for the trip came first, the boat came second. Origionally, when I first started thinking about the trip (while passing the time sitting out a storm in a snowcave during the 1989 Mt. Everest/Tibet International Goodwill Expedition) I had thought I would use a MK VII Zodiac with a 36 hp. Yanmar outboard, like the ones we used in the Antarctic to get to shore from expedition ships. Remember, the trip required extended passages up rivers with nearly 12 kts. of current and sometimes only 2 ft. of water, with some minor land transits around dams etc. Thus, speed and draft were critical. In 1995 I helped crew a boat (Marythought) from Panama to Newport, Ca. to be donated to Orange Coast College for sail training. At that time H & S in Newport had one of the first 26X's on display. Didn't take me long to figure out that this boat could be modified for the openwater jumps, travel at 12 kts. up rivers, swim in 1 ft. of water and keep me from having to live in a tent for the next few years. SOLD! Additionally, I might add as I made my living as an Adventure Travel & Expedition Guide at the time & knowing that I would be self insured I wanted to keep any loss, should I lose the boat to a minimum. The passion for long passages just grew on its own as I became comfortable with the boat. Also, my modifications were not a one time thing, they have always been a 'work in process'. Its a great deal, I get to live, travel & use my home as my hobby. Maddmike

[Moe]

Moe,

Thanks again buddy,........!!!!

my 20 inch long, 12 inch diamter canvas bags look terrible by comparison. I am going to have improve on this.

If you have the sewing machine for it, SailRite has kits for making the cones. Since a Mac probably only needs 60-70, maybe two owners could go together and split the cost of one of the bigger kits.

[waternwaves]

Well,

Sadly enough, I no longer have access to my great source of bags. (those were prime nuclear grade.......pure Nomex, flame proof, strong, light, etc.....) those auctions are long gone...... I should check and see if any more of those are coming up on surplus........but they are hard on my little machine, and the X has the serger.....

I guess I could move my little sewing machine onto my X........... since I have moved onto the boat 2 to 3 nights a week for the winter.......would give me another project to do on the boat........lol

I will check out the Sailright offering...... I am curious tho.......it seems the nesting of the cones and ropes could be improved...

[Moe]

I still have my doubts about taking breaking waves over the stern with a (Dan Jordan designed) series drogue. The company that sells kits and completed drogues (and the one who hosted the USCG report above) makes two cases against a parachute sea anchor off the bow. One is that a boat tethered from the bow swings at anchor and will swing broadside to the sea on a sea anchor. The other is that extremely high loads are experienced when the rode goes slack and tightens again in the waves (noting the anchor on the series drogue takes the slack out).

It just seems to me I'd rather be pulled through the face of a breaking wave pointy end first. But according to Lin & Larry Pardey, in Storm Tactics, if you heave to with a para-anchor, you won't have to because "the slick," between the sea anchor and your boat, caused by your boat making leeway, will cause the waves not to break. They run the para-anchor off the bow with a bridle, as has been discussed here for reducing or eliminating swinging at anchor.

While large breaking waves may be rare in deep ocean water, many of us aren't going to go past the shallower continental shelf, where I'd think their probabillity is greater.

I know a huge number of sailors have survived some pretty big waves lying ahull, but I think I'd rather be hove to. Of course, if I HAD to run with the sea, the drogue would be the ticket.