Batteries

[Terry]

I see a few sailors are getting some longevity out of their original batteries and got to wondering about life expectancy. Last time my car battery died I was told not to expect more than four years on average from a battery even though the warranty says longer. I don't know what brand battery the dealer put in my boat in 2003 as it is installed way back under the steering linkage & I have to pull it out to see (likely a cheapo). I could not resist the West Marine deal 650 cranking Seabolt on sale for $49.00Cdn, reg $85.00Cdn, sale ends Friday March 31/06 so I ordered one over the phone. Thing is the one I have in the boat still works and has worked the last 3 seasons, I only bought the new one for peace of mind in case this one dies. Can I leave the new one in the garage till I need it or must it be put to use right away, not sure what to do with it. I am using an old Sears Die Hard for a house battery because it was only a year old when I sent the old car it was in to the junk yard so rather than let it sit (or leave in the car) I put it in the boat. I am now looking to replace it with a proper deep cycle, planned on AGM but info above is making me waffle. Is it unwise to use my old Die Hard in a boat, will it produce gas? (I've never had to put water in it, not sure it even takes any, I think it is sealed) Looks like I jumped at a deal I didn't need.

[Tom Spohn]

Frank C.
I looked and can't find the receipts and I can't remember the cost. Both the Trojan and the Dyno are available in Seattle area. Dyno is at Fisheries Supply. Memory has it that both were more expensive than the discount sources. At one time BWY had a write up on why they prefered the flooded cell type--might give them a call and see if they can send you one--sorry I managed to misplace that also! Notice in the West Marine catalog they like the 6 volt setup as the batteries are designed to be deeply discharged day after day and in a vibrating environment.

[theroche]

I'm a long time reader !st time writer. I'll have to agree with Night Sailor., the optima batteries hold up quite well. Used them for years in my truck, Harley, and my recently aquired 99 26X. I usually purchase them hrough ebay or Sams club. Using red tops in the MAC

[delevi]

I recently bought a solar powered trickle charger. This works great after overnight trips when you do much sailing and little motoring . The batteries get run down and don't have a chance to recharge. They also loose some juice during long periods of non use like inthe off-season. With this gizmo, I was able to charge both my batteries to full power after just leaving out for a week. One was fully dead. The other was about 1/2-3/4. (I used up a lot of power tiliting my engine up and down when installing the BWY engine linkage. I had some trouble so there was much trial and error.) This thing just plugs into a cigarette lighter outlet or right on the battery, (comes with little jumper cable-like attachments.) I used the lighter socket, since I have one, and that allows me to charge both simultaneously. Faster & easier too. Just leave it anywhere on deck. I used a bungee cord to secure it along with a very thin cable and lock. It's 5 amps/hour and was on sale at Kragen for $49.

Leon

[Chip Hindes]

A $49 "trickle charger" is likely to be 5 Watt. Rule of thumb says this will charge at the rate of approximately 2.5 amp hours/day if aimed directly at the sun; 1.25 amp hours per day if aimed randomly as your is. So in a week you'd be fortunate to get back 8 amp hours. That's around 5% of the capacity of two 80 amp hour Mac batteries discharged to 50% of capacity; less if you've upgaded to larger batteries.

These are commonly called "battery maintainers" rather than chargers, because the output is normally sufficient only to make up the juice lost through self discharge when the battery is not being used.

[delevi]

Yeah Chip. I thought I had a full charge on my discharged battery when it started quickly after a week of solar charging, only to find out next time out that it could barely turn over the motor. It did start, but I was just about ready to switch to the second battery. My second (optional) battery is good quality, but the stock Mac battery is junk. It fully discharged on my after the first overnight trip. I usually switch over to the weaker battery when motoring to juice it up, but was never able to get it anywhere close to capacity. I think I'll spend the $70 for a good one and replacy the junky stock Mac battery.

Leon

[Frank C]

Of small value to Leon, but today I checked on some battery stuff for my 26X. First thing, agree that the factory battery is pretty basic. But it appears that the dealer installed them backwards. Whenever the factory battery went low for starting duty, I could simply switch to parallel and start the outboard instantly. But, it has been the factory Gp 24 that lasted six years in the primary role ... starting the Suzuki AND running the house. Now it's clearly time for the factory battery to retire.

My second battery is a Walmart EverStart (875 ca, unkn amp hrs) Gp 27, meaning it's 13 inches long by ~9" tall. Both are ~7 inches wide. The 26X battery compartment, under the galley-aft seat, can easily fit two of the large Gp 27 batts. The factory locker opening is only 12" wide, but there's plenty of space to enlarge that to 14" wide. This will permit two of the big Everstarts to just drop into place ... a mod that's underway.

If I wanted to abandon the existing Everstart, now six years old, I might even place two of Tom's favored six-volt golfcart batteries in there too. There's 11 inches of headspace and easily enough breadth otherwise. OR ... could move toward the Optima-style.

But both directions seem unnecessary, the AGMs require a different charging regimen, and I hate to punt the existing Gp 27. I think I'll just get another EverStart and put them parallel. A jumpstart battery will serve as backup - total investment is another $64.

[ralphk]

Good thread with useful tips.
I've got a couple of deep cycle flooded batteries to add, and would
really like to place them starboard. (I'd previously made some galley mods and probably added 60-70 lbs to port already)

97 26X.
I'll need access to maintain and top up cells.
Any suggestions?

[Bobby T.-26X #4767]

on my X they are under the front dinette seat on the starboard side.
can be accessed via the opening under the seat cushion.

Bob T.
"DaBob"
'02X w/ '04 90 TLDI

[argonaut]

Just for general FYI I called Trojan (what a great name, eh?) and talked to a sales engineer there about this "equalization" question and a few others that seem to cast shadows on the benefits of using sealed AGMs.

Equalization
The fellow I spoke to said equalization was definitely not something you want to ever do with an AGM. He described that it's purpose is to stir up solution electrolyte in a wet or flooded cell, and helps with dispersing sulfation buildup.
You don't want to do that in the AGM because the electrolyte is less liquid and anything that "cooks" the electrolyte (paste) in a sealed cell is bad.
There is support for his description of equalization here

Special Charger?
I asked about using my Wallsmart Vector brand three stage charger, with 20/10/2 amp stages on the new AGM.
He said the critical thing with AGMs is they need to be charged at a 14.2 - 14.7V range due to their chemistry. I need to check this & see with these lower internal resistance AGMs what voltage the charger's putting out.

How Fast can I Safely Recharge?
He said the battery can be safely charged at 25% of rated capacity.
So for my 100 A/hr group 27 that's 25 amps, so that's no problem.
Depleted 50% I have to replace about 50A (slightly more actually).
He said you want to replace the energy as soon as possible, then recharge about monthly if it's not used.

Should I Use a Maintainer?
He said they are not needed because once charged, AGMs hold a charge longer anyway. He suggested if it was going to be months without using to check & recharge about monthly.

When is it time to Switch Over to Battery #2?
I asked how far it is safe to run them down.
He said about 50% of rated capacity, which ends up being about 11.3V measured under load.

So far the same overnight use that would eat up my old battery hasn't phased the new one as it read 12.8V when I got back to the dock, so my "trusty" Honda replaced my use before I got back on the trailer.

[Frank C]

I read Argo's link to the Arizona guys - still confused

Flooded battery life can be extended if an equalizing charge is applied every 10 to 40 days
(sounds like MONTHLY to me - and I've NEVER done this for my wet cell batteries!).
This is a charge that is about 10% higher than normal full charge voltage, and is applied for about 2 to 16 hours. This makes sure that all the cells are equally charged, and the gas bubbles mix the electrolyte.
... AGM should be equalized 2-4 times a year at most - check the manufacturers recommendations ...

... Typically AGM batteries are difficult to recharge fully unless a high float voltage is maintained for many hours after the absorption cycle completes. ... Of course marketing trumps technical information, especially it seems, in the battery business. AGM batteries were originally sold as not needing equalization. It turns out they do, and apparently quite frequently. Even then, users are having difficulty getting them to fully charge. We have no advice on how to achieve that other then applying a float voltage for 8-24 hours after the end of the absorption cycle.

This is how you equalize AGM's: Details provided by Lifeline indicate that the equalization process involves "charging" the battery at 15.5 VDC for a 3 hour period. During this process the current acceptance of the battery will slowly drop from 3 -5 amps, to slightly more than .5 amps, during the 3 hour equalization period. ... if in doubt contact Lifeline. The key to the equalization though is maintaining the equalization voltage at 15.5VDC for 3 hours.

But maybe the fog is beginning to clear ... Yes, I think the answer is clear.
"EQUALIZE your batteries (but only if you NEVER insert a Q-tip "directly into" your ear canal) !

Both of these recommendations say equalizing of AGM is done at HIGHER voltage (amperage not critical) but LESS frequently ... I'm inferring that "internet reports" of difficulty getting AGMs up to full charge are due to inadequate voltage. You need to really pump them with 15+ volts ... maybe once or twice a year. This simply means finding the right charger, methinks. But since I SHOULD HAVE equalized my wet cells "monthly" ... and didn't ... I think the correct "Mac" answer is,
"Don't worry, be happy!"

Important Macgregor provisos for Mac owners:

• * never use outboard hydrofoils;
  * never cruise ballast-empty with more than owner & one monkey;
  * AGMs need a Q-tip inserted directly into an adjacent fuse holder every year (or so)!

Sounds like Argo's setup is just fine. Not sure yet if I want to add a wet cell or AGM, but I definitely wouldn't want to parallel the two varieties. Since I also have a 2-bank, Link 2000 still sitting on the shelf, might just maintain two banks, one Deep and the other AGM, just to see how they compare!

[Bobby T.-26X #4767]

what about wiring 2 - 6 volt batteries in parallel to make a 12 volt.
i'm thinking about this concet for my "house" battery.
Costco has 6 volt golf cart batteries for a little over $50 each.
they're deep cycle and you get better results with 2 - 6 volts wired together than one big 12 volt, right?

[DLT]

what about wiring 2 - 6 volt batteries in parallel to make a 12 volt.

You'd need to wire them in series, not parallel...

[Bobby T.-26X #4767]

you are correct!
i couldn't think of the word.
+ to -

[Hamin' X]

I'm not trying to be smart here, but why would two, 6v's be better than one, 12v? You have twice as many connections to go bad, more loss and more space used (due to case walls) in the 6v.

I think that this originated when the only "deep cycle's" were 6v batteries. I'll have to research it further.

Rich