New Sails

[delevi]

I will be in the market for new sails next season. I am really impressed with UK tapedrive sails (especially the clear-really cool looking) My concern, however, is longevity. After less than two full seasons, my stock sails are nearly blown out (leech areas on both main & jib are not holding their shape.) I want the new sails to last at least 4 seasons. Does this mean I'm stuck with Dacron? I like the laminates, especially the UK TD, but I don't race and I hear the sun really destroys laminate sails. The sail shape, however holds up better then Dacron. My problem isn't structural life but functional life. That problem seems to be resolved with the tapedrive sails, but then, how fast will the sun destroy them? I also really like the clear (transparent) sail offered by UK, but not sure about performance of these, etc. Then there's the issue of battens. I like the idea of full battens, but I'm wondering how much that limits the sail's ability to twist. Would love to get some opinions and/or advice.

Cheers,
Leon

[Terry]

I believe sails were covered in other trhreads but here are a couple sites, my own bias is NorthSails, they have some good options that combine longevity with performance and have experience with Macgregor sails.
http://www.northsails.com/

http://thesailwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/web ... l&cart_id=

http://www.cruisingdirect.com/

http://www.westernsailcraft.com/macgregor.php

[Tripp Gal]

Get your favorite beverage, a danish and read this mini dissertation.

You are correct, the two lives of a sail are shape and fabric. Shape life is always the first to go of the two as the sail regardless of the material does age and fatigue. The most obvious point of aging happens to be the leech of the sail and while dacron sails will stretch and sag (getting that weird wrinkly flutter between the battens) laminate sails end up with the leech bowling and then you have to induce twist and backstay tension to open the top of the sail and flatten the leech out.

As to composite materials,
Laminates as a whole are very strong, and can last years depending on the thread count, quality of lamination, and how much epoxy they use in the layup. Sails that are laminates made from D/P or Bainbridge "cloth" have fabric lives up to ten years, and sails that are string sails are having a challenging teenage period of development and don't last that long, yet.

UK Tape Drives are designed using a scrim or base fabric from a cloth manufacturer and then the tapes are actually applied by hand along computer coded paths on the fabric. It is considered "old" technology in loft land but the sails are generally bullet-proof and last for ages. As they age the sails do suffer from leech cupping and the draft crawls way aft leaving the front entry very flat and while it points great it's a miserable sail to drive to as the groove is so narrow and you have to crank on halyard tension to bring the draft back forward. (generally this is an anal retentive racer issue as my cruiser friends are running around with sails that have draft sitting at 60% and they don't even notice).

Paneled Sails, or sometimes called radial sails, are another style of composite sail. The sails are laminate panels stitched together into radial patterns according to the load patterns on the clew, tack, and head. Again these things last for quite some time. The places they shape age are again the leech (cups) and the draft can slide back a bit. Again 3-4 years of shape life is not uncommon for regular race use if the fabric matches the boat loads and common windspeeds.

String sails are the sails where the mylar sandwiches a computer programed "path" of spectra, twaron, carbon threads that follow a designers perceived "load path". Every major loft has their line, and the smaller lofts have access to D4's (Doyle's product they sold to a leading fabric manufacturer) to create a string sail.

What's right for you? Well it depends on how often you use the sails, avg. windspeed, race or cruise, and budget. Talk to sail reps (most don't make sails in-house anymore) and see what they come up with, and if you aren't sure ask some of the locals who you feel comfortable asking who have bought sails from the various lofts and ask them their impressions.

Talk with both sailmakers who still make their own sails and major lofts who outsource.

E/P sails in California, Harry Pattison is a very knowledgeable source they make fast sails, great prices, and they still make their sails in house.

Chat with the guys at UK, I have worked with Andy Halsey and Butch Ulmer the owners of UK-Halsey and they are two very dedicated people, I have great respect for them. It also happens I have 4 UK sails that are over 10 years old and still are hoofin along. you gotta crank on the halyard to get the draft in the right spot, but the fabric is still like new.

[They Theirs]

The mainsail will be your big investment. You might consider a modified Dacron like Pentex for its ability to hold shape (better than twice that of standard Dacron) while retaining the option for re-cutting when assembled with the cross cut design. Radial cut sails from composite materials will have a longer usable life when sailed in the Frisco higher winds. Their ability to retain drive and shape over Dacron sails, especially the light marginal sails we use for all around sailing.

I believe your search is more to find a loft willing to manufacture flat sails (and a Traveler able drop the angle of attack quickly in puffs to keep the Mac on its feet, and then quickly travel back without changing sheeting angle or sail shape) Most sailors demanding equipment to sail in the heavy wind with your enthusiasm, might just maintain a performance main and radial cut composite #3 or #4 Blade, and a set of Doyle OEM sails for sailing in light to medium air, casual sailing, saving the better sails for PowerSailing.

[Frank C]

... UK Tape Drives are .... considered "old" technology in loft land
but the sails are generally bullet-proof and last for ages.

Old, but looking d@mn good for her age! ... even though her dress is a bit long versus the coamings.

UK 135 Tapedrive


FWIW, the UK loft in San Francisco basically smirked when I asked if they'd make a Genoa for my Macgregor 26X - and priced it at a ridiculous $ 2,000 mainly because they didn't want the work. I still harbor "consumer resentment" at that guy (Barrielle, a Frenchman). By contrast, Bob DeClerq at the Detroit UK loft was enthusiastic. He said they had done several Macgregors before, had the pattern on their computer, and offered this 135 Genoa at $950 if I ordered it before April, high-season.

Agree w/ Sudie that the tape construction seems bullet-proof - and it doesn't really suffer that much UV exposure in San Francisco. Another thing to keep in mind ... our boats are relatively light versus the loft's normal application. A well-designed, durable sail won't face the full brunt of windspeeds as it would on a displacement hull that's stuck in the water - our semi-displacing hulls can't impose those same kinds of loads - means any sail will suffer less distortion loads versus conventional hulls.

Doing over again ... 135 is the minimum for other venues like SoCal or PNW, but too much for an average summer afternoon on SF Bay. Also, Detroit's sweep is too deep for this hull, since the Genoa cars on cockpit coaming can't pull enough leech-down, pulling mostly foot-aft even as shown (with cars forward). Just be sure the loft considers the coaming height - unfortunately, the DeClerq's have jumped ship - maybe now a North loft.

My dealer suggested adapting my boat for the "long skirt," maybe by adding a hull fitting (down where the chainplate bolts) for barber-hauling the sheet lower. I think it needs to be aft of the chainplates, but it's still an option, someday.

[normo]

I'm no expert but I have owned several and observed many dacron and laminate sails over the years.

It is common knowledge that compared to dacron, laminate sails tend to be significantly more expensive, hold their shape longer and generally "wear out" significantly faster.

Our sailmaker tells us that the primary damage to laminate sails is caused by flogging, continual folding, and the death squeeze associated with securing hanked on head sails or flaked main sails. The second problem with laminates is low tolerance to UV. Some materials literally deteriorate on the sailmaker's shelf if not protected. I dont recall ever seeing a 20 year old laminate sail whereas it is not that uncommon to see an old Dacron sail still holding her own.

Our sailmaker says a laminate head sail is a good choice if it is on a furler and has good UV protection when furled. He tells us that main sails have short lives compared to Dacron. The furler eliminates the majority of the handling damage whereas flaking the main contributes to it.

For the Mac, I dont see how you can beat a quality sail made of Dacron. Dacron will provide respectable performance for a couple of hundred uses, if not abused, and further life with a modest performance loss tolerable to most skippers. It is relatively inexpensive to buy, inexpensive to repair, and will take a lot of abuse. Even with the best laminates the Mac is destined to be near the back of the pack in a speed contest with most any well prepared and well sailed conventional sailboat. Being at the back of the pack with cool looking sails is not cool.

[They Theirs]

What are the changes you have made compared to a stock 26M?

BWY Todd wrote:
I worked really hard to reduce weight aloft as much as possible, as this really helps stability. We replaced the cable shrouds with Samson Validator 12 line. The Val 12 is almost twice as strong as the cable, and has only a tiny bit more stretch. I spliced the line directly to the fittings on the mast to eliminate the weight of the shackles. We left the foam out of the mast to save weight and sealed all of the fittings watertight instead. This may seem a little extreme, but weight reduction starts with grams, becomes ounces, and then pounds. All in all, I was able to get almost 10# out of the rigging.

What are the changes you have made compared to a stock 26M?

[Tripp Gal]

Lease: That is most likely being used for running rigging. zero stretch, zero creep, doesn't absorb water. 1/4" weighs 2.2 lbs per 100 feet and has a bs of 9400 lbs.

Frank C: I like tape drives, I have several of them. Since tape drives have been around for over a decade, and newer methods of distributing the load have come around the industry considers them old. Personally I have had more life out of the tape drives than any other sail we have had on the boat. A good looking sail is a good looking sail no matter what technology is being used.

There is nothing wrong with dacron it has it's place and time. No question about it. Had them for years, and still sail on boats that have dacron. They just aren't practical for the boat we currently own.

It's all about choices, I don't advocate one over the other, that is for the sailor and the sailmaker to decide together.

1. Laminate sails suffer from repeated injury abuse. Dacron is sensitive to repeated injury as well, but since it's slippery as snot most often the sail shifts it's folds a bit and lays down in a new spot.

2. UV Sensitivity
There's two parts to uv sensitivity when it comes to laminates. First are strings in the layup. Twaron, Carbon, and Spectra aren't as UV unstable as we initially thought. yes there are some composites using PBO strands that are VERY sensitive to light, but to me that's just stupid applied materials practice to use something that will lose strength that quickly. Second, mylar skins or membranes are lasting well into the ten year mark without problems of delam or weakness. The biggest thing is if the sails have the proper combination of glue. Too much glue and they are brittle, too little and they don't stay stuck together. Laminate too soon after the epoxy is sprayed and the carrier agent (MEK for one) doesn't evaporate in time and the sail doesn't laminate properly. Dacron doesn't delam but it is sensitive to UV light and the fibers will break down. There's a great paper from an applied materials grad student running around about degradation rates.

3. Sail weight. In laminates, hard core racers (with big pocket books) use thinner films and fewer threads which drastically shortens the life of the sail as you are asking a sail built to work in less than 5 knots to sail in 10, or 15, or 25. It's also cheaper to make. But there is a balance, put in too many threads and the films don't have enough bonding surface and the sail will delam quicker than fewer threads. Picking a lighter weight dacron has similar effect in that the sail will lose it's shape quicker, more likely to blow out at a seam, etc. Dacron sails being woven, can hold more water in them making them heavier and more prone to rot if put away wet and left for extended periods. Salt is a major enemy of dacron as the salt dries it crystalizes and starts making micro cuts in the dacron as the sail moves in use. Those cuts can eventually cut through.

4. cost. Dacon is cheaper. Laminates are more expensive. I don't ever see this changing.

5. Ability to hold shape. Dacron sails being woven don't hold their shape as well as laminates. Thus shape life is much shorter, especially in bigger wind conditions. To compensate sailmakers will put heavier weights of dacron on a boat, but heavier sails are also more unwieldy to handle and affect heeling moment on a boat (more weight aloft) which means more butts hiking to counteract it. Even with heavier weight, it will still stretch out quicker than equivalent laminates....

So just like any boat, everything has pro and cons. As to pentex, I'm not for against, it's just another laminate to explore. The first choice sailors have to make is woven or composite. From there it's scrim and thread choices....

[They Theirs]

First choice will be cost. I include Pentex for its ability to hold shape better than twice as strong over Dacron and its price is the next step up

[Terry]

Wow, some very good info in this thread, especially from TrippGal.
It appears to me after reading this and many other threads regarding sails that the stock factory sails are adequate at best and when replacement time comes they should be replaced with something superior. I see that $500-$600 is the stock replacement price for a main for those on a tight budget. Not that I am not on a tight budget but I have to wonder what the average replacement cost should really be if imposing other considerations. I sense that any custom after market sail would be an improvement over the standard factory replacement but what are the considerations other sailors would be willing to take into account and what is the price range a typical Mac owner falls into.
Since the Mac is not a racer we can eliminate expensive racing sails, not to say that performance is a non issue, just that competitive racing is not in the cards, at least for me. Performance, longevity & price are the main considerations for me. Since I am mostly into cruising, I don't require a racing sail but nevertheless I still want semi performance sail that will improve the Macs sailing ability while at the same time provide many years of sailing life. Now price, well that is a more personal issue but I would be willing to pay double the standard price to get a better sail and I suspect that is not much considering how much high end sails cost. NorthSails have a polyester/mylar composite called NorLam that is a combination of polyester and mylar, not as expensive as some laminates but superior to plain Dacron. I have not contacted Northsails since I e-mailed them a year ago but at the time they assured me they could make a fine replacement. Since they are close by I will likely hire their services, probably next year. I am not sure what I can get in the $1000-$1500 price range but that is as high as I am willing to go for now. Let's see what they can convince me to pay when the time comes, they do have some impressive material/designs on their website.

TrippGal wrote:

What's right for you? Well it depends on how often you use the sails, avg. windspeed, race or cruise, and budget. Talk to sail reps (most don't make sails in-house anymore) and see what they come up with, and if you aren't sure ask some of the locals who you feel comfortable asking who have bought sails from the various lofts and ask them their impressions.

So what is right for others here, what are your priorities? There is another thread already started on the ultimate sail but the price is unrealisticly low for an ultimate sail, it is a standard replacement sail price. An ultimate sail is going to cost more.

[They Theirs]

I would certainly check the quality and workmanship of the loft near your type of sailing. Next check to see if they sub the sail out for cutting and assembly. Some smaller lofts have large suppliers or larger lofts equipped with expensive plotter/cutters to create a design submitted. Some lofts have them assemble the panels, and many assemble and finish themselves. (ask if they sub out your sail to larger Lofts?) If you are purchasing a quality radial cut sail of better materials, you can use lighter stronger material cut with the warp-and-weave directional to benefit holding the sail shape. Dont you just love the new Technology, and if you want a simple cross cut the loft will no doubt cut and assemble their own blank, reinforce and finish to your demands. The cross cut can be re-cut when shape can no longer be pulled with controls, but they are never as good as a new sail. I would rather purchase a sail for high winds, to provide the control in keeping the boat and your confidence up.

Take the position youve done your homework, and demand a sail that will give you the trim and sailing you desire, a good fit, with all control lines fitting and working correctly. If you are not upgrading your rigging and controls for better control when the breeze picks up, I might just choose the generic low cost OEM sails.

I know many relate they are not a racer, but most sail controls have come from racing. Cruising boats use a Cunningham, good outhauls, and draft stripes to adjust the drive shape and depth of the sail. Some types of upgraded reefing and maybe think a loose foot main. Most of all we need a real working traveler, not an adjustable mainsheet attachment.

PS Has anyone compared the BWY custom laminate sail shape with the OEM sails in the pictures from the above post?

Note the flat shape of the custom laminate sail, the well adjusted luff Also note the tight straight line of the headsail on its forestay tightly tensioned. Im sure many would be impressed with the benefit of well made custom sails. Sails with a sagging luff, sporting a huge deep draft are further impaired with massive sagging forestay which only further creates a deeper draft in the foresail impairing sailing on the wind, not to mention some loss of rudder control and excessive heel instead of drive.

[They Theirs]

Doyle Durasail

[delevi]

Thanks very much for the info everyone, especially Tripp Gal, TT. This is very useful stuff. The abundance of choices makes choosing a sail quite a challange. It is good to know that a quality laminate sail will last more than a couple of years. That was a big concern for me, since I am strongly leaning in that direction.

Leon

[Frank C]

Hey They Theirs, what's that stuff that the standing rigging is made from?

The trademarked fiber name is Vectran (maybe also Dyneema?) frequently used in 12-strand single-braids. This means they're actually pretty easy (for novice riggers) to eye-splice, though it takes some experience to dial-into precise lengths with splices on both ends. For example, our pro-rigger charges only 8 bucks for each eyesplice, but $30/each if needed +/- a half-inch. They all have nearly zero creep & elongation (stretch) so they can be used for the standing rig. Tripp Gal suggested Amsteel 12 is frequently used as a wire replacement too.

I actually bought a 30-foot length of V-12 (same stuff, but made by New England Ropes) for replacing my baby stays and cockpit lifelines. These naked single-braids are a bit sensitive to UV degradation ... some have special coatings to reduce that problem. But I asked a local rigger (Svendsen's in Alameda) about changing to Vectran shrouds and he advised strongly against it. (I wasn't chasing any special strength or weight characteristics, just a more manageable spaghetti mess when dropping the mast~!)

According to Svendsen, their problem is that all of the high-modulus ropes are highly suseptible to chafe. This is especially a problem where the spreader tips attach to the rope. Also, you can't use the Loos gauge to measure your rig tension, so you're forced to just tuning the mast by eyeball. I'm not totally convinced by his arguments. New shrouds would require about 100 feet of rope at about a buck per foot ... it can stay in the job-jar for awhile.

[delevi]

Hey Frank,

If it aint broke...
I think you may want to take your rigger's advice on this one. Just my humble opinion.