Took The Plunge-Ordered New Sails

[delevi]

Well, after much research, price shopping and getting educated on different types of sails, I took the plunge. I researched UK, North, Quantum, Pineapple, Doyle & Haarstick. I was first leaning towards a high-tech laminate but came to the conclusion that the cost is simply unjustified for the Mac and the life expectancy would be too short under heavy use. I finally decided to go with Quantum Sails. I went with a 105% Fusion X Pentex jib, which is actually a laminate sail, but has multiple layers of Mylar, Pentex, and Talfeta exterior layers, which should actually make it more durable than a Dacron sail. For the main, I went with a tight weave, high aspect, cross cut 6 oz Dacron, loose foot, top batten full, three mid-size battens, two reefs & Cunningham. The jib actually costs as much as the main. Its a real high-tech sail. To get the main in Fusion X would cost almost double, and the sales guy recommended going with the high tech jib and the high-end Dacron main to get the most performance/longevity bang for the buck, so I took his advice. The sail loft guy is coming out to measure the boat tomorrow and I should have the sails October 2, just after the winds die down. I guess I wont be able to give an accurate performance report until next March, but methinks I wont be disappointed. Man, I never had this much fun spending money!

[They Theirs]

We all await the last and final act in your quest for performance!

From JeffR wrote:
On Difference between old and new sails:

When I bought my boat, with its 15 year old blown out sails, I went crazy trying to make sense out of all the sail trim books I read. None of this great advice worked no matter how hard I tried.

I bought a new set of sails and all of a sudden it all worked just like the experts said it was supposed to.

I really could shift gears, WoW!

Now that my main has 3 seasons on it, I noticed it is getting just a little harder to make it do all those things it used to do. And the genoa with 2 race seasons on it doesn't point as high as it used to.

The only bad part about buying new sails is it makes you realize just how bad a bad sail can be. They make very good (but expensive) drop cloths.

Nice Choice on the Pentex.
Organize your rigging so when the new sail is being fitted, you'll be ready.
prep your boom for the extra load of the loose footed main, and upgrade your outhaul and cunningham. Manufacture a working traveler to compliment the new main and vang. Brainstorm a design for an adjustable forestay, the boat is small enough to avoid the bother of running backs.

Tell the loft you want your tack and clew with sewn in three strap webbing of good quality and SS D rings, with well designed good looking corner reinforcement, no pressed in corner grommets.




Dont forget several draft stripes and multiple sets of "Tell Tales" on both sails, maybe a round window in the headsail for viewing the leeward tails. Ask about quality-"Tapered Lightweight Battens" for the top two battens, to maintain shape. Be sure you have some adjustable batten pockets that will load and unload with double overlap Velcro lock straps. Have them install an upgraded and reinforced leach line cleat controls, maybe hand sewn on the leach, with a better quality leach line. Pay attention to your main headboard selection to benefit from extra sail slides and a good halyard attachment to compliment your upgraded halyard block alignment. Have them include and install the Mac emblem and sail numbers of your choice and color, if you plan to race, its part of the cost of the sail. Request upgraded sail bags with quality material and high quality stitching and net drains for air-drying. Have them sew on easily seen #1, 2, 3, or blade emblems on the bags, make them complete a superior job. As you have the Spinnaker, have them manufacture a matching bag for your sail set, plus install numbers on your spinnaker. Above all, make sure the sails fit and the controls work, including your headsail sheet block positions for powering up or down the new sail. Make sure from experience your mainsail reefing and slugs will work without problems. Sew on all slides with webbing, no plastic or screws. Plan ahead for your mainsail reefing hardware and lines. Get a written contract with everything in writing. Ask they use the best UV thread. Spend more time on the shape and design of the sail.

Im reserving the decision for of a furling sail for you (like I did not know) but loose the CDI FF2 Toy, or youll not have any control over luff tension.

From Ivarswrote:
You need to be careful in using your high-tech sail reefed because it is not designed to be used reefed. A racing sail has compound curves in the luff which do not spread the load equally along the luff while reefed and is not built to take loads while reefed. Laminated cloth also does not like to be stressed randomly as it breaks down the adhesive / laminations resulting in an early departure of the sail. The shape / performance of a racing sail will be quickly lost if you use it reefed. A roller furling jib is cut with much less shape to roll more evenly and to better distrubute the loads while reefed. Any sail can be used on a furler as long as it is all in or all out; things happen to a sail only while it is used reefed / partially furled.
Also, laminated sails don't do so well while being stored on furlers. It's not the furler that is the problem, but the water/moisture that gets trapped in the rolls. Most laminated sails have some component of mylar or some other impervious membrane that keeps the sail from breathing / fully drying out while furled. The trapped moisture will cause the sail to mildrew and grow other crud detracting from the appearance of the sail. Woven cloth (Dacron) breathes readily and is most suitable for a furling sail. A laminated furling sail is better protected by a zippered cover as it prevents rain from finding its way into the rolls and getting trapped.

PS Never store or leave your Roller Furling/Reefing headsail luff tension on after sailing.

[delevi]

Thanks TT. A bit heavy on the additional stuff, since I don't race, but most of these things have already been addressed. I do like my FF2 Furler and with the foam luff, I will get nice shape even when roller reefed. The Fusion X is guarantted against delamination.

I'm wondering if it's worth springing an extra $500 for the Fusion X Pentex main to match the jib. I found out it may not be as much as I thought. Or, is this just overkill for the Mac?

Leon

[They Theirs]

Delevi
I would purchase these custom sails to endure the wind and your type of sailing. I know you dont race, but it is a rare occasion when out in the boat that I can overtake a larger or similar craft, or they attempt to pass, we check the leads, sheets and sails to see if there is not some extra boat speed available.

Buy sails that will give you a long service in the Bays stronger winds. You know the quick mortality of the least cost Dacron OEM Sails in these conditions. I would buy a better, stronger, sail to retain its shape in higher winds. I would go with the Pentex and treat them like Gold, Maybe even use my old sails for kicking around, or purchase some inexpensive sails for light air, saving the Good Sails for your Sailing Fix, sailing hard on the wind.

PS You would not settle for an lighter keel, or smaller rudders. Why settle for softer sails or inferior rigging.

[Frank C]

Overkill? ... another half-boatBuck?
Considering all the companion upgrades to your boat ... I'd think not.
Not at all!

Easy for me to spend your money, Leon! Ask Quantum, again?

[delevi]

Talked to Don at Quantum this morning. He feels strongly that the super high quality Dacron main and this high-tech Fuxion X jib is the best setup for my boat. He feels there would be virtually zero benefit in getting the main in Fusion X, other than getting his sales numbers up. You have to appreciate that kind of honesty. I'm sticking with his advice and keeping the order as is. After looking at the sample Dacron cloth, the stuff is like stone; really tough. It's the highest quality Dac on the market. The jib has pentex grids throughout, not just for predetermined load areas but small, closely formed grids through the entire sail, which is supposed to be a much better way to go than a sail which distributes loads to the higher load areas and not evenly throughout the sail, as in a Tapedrive. This also makes roller reefing a non-issue and the foam luff will help keep the sail's shape even when partially rolled. That with the running backstays will keep things rolling nicely in high winds. I think I'm happy witht the choice.

I decided to omit sail numbers for now. If I ever get into racing, I can get them put on later. I also never cared for the big M at the top of my sail, so I'm doing away with that as well.

TT,
All the stuff you suggested come standard with the sails. I don't think I need to change anything to my boom or halyard, but I will be installing a 3:1 cunningham and I have already installed a 3:1 outhaul & single line reefing for the deep reef. I will have jack lines on the two slugs needed for reefing without having to drop slugs out of the track. Ahh, this is going to be fun.

Thanks all for your comments and suggestions.

Cheers,
Leon

[They Theirs]

The high teck mainsail and foresail:
Most lofts lay out the blank for the Cross-cut mainsail themselves. There quality of the sail is totally a product of the old school sailmaker. I have seen new cross cut sails put together by workers in the shop, and they rarely provide the shape and fit of the Computer Designed and plotter cut professionally assembles blanks. Most small lofts do not even have a plotter cutter, they send their designs to a larger loft supporting the expensive equipment and skilled technicians to assemble the blank, and the small loft will finish luff, leach, foot and finish.

I know there may be a cost saving for the loft manufacturing in-house, but computer designed laminate sails are superior in shape and performance. Cross cut are Good for there ability to be re-cut and reassembled to perform better or correct errors in production. Performance laminate sails must be correct from the shape built into the radial cut assembly.light weight materials can be used in areas of light load, with enhanced materials where needed. There is little comparison for durability in higher winds, as the crosscut Dacron will be heavier and loose shape, where the laminate sail will still have shape as it ages.



Quantum Composite Mainsails offer the ultimate










From Quantum Design Group: About Performance Cruising Sails

What do You Gain With More Sophisticated Materials and Construction Techniques?
In a word, shape. The ability of a sail structure to resist stretch, and maintain an airfoil shape is directly proportional to the strength and stretch resistance of the materials used. The actual construction details (how many panels and sections, and the method of building the corner reinforcements) is also a factor. Tri-radial sails built with composite materials hold their shape better initially, and over time. Shape is important if you want a boat to sail well upwind. It also is meaningful in controlling heel and weather helm. Weight of the sail itself is another consideration. The bigger the sail, the more the weight savings. On small to medium size boats, most of the gain is in strength, not weight.


Cross Cut
The standard for the past thirty years. Utilizes panels oriented from luff to leech. Sails are made from woven polyester (better known by Duponts trademark for the fiber Dacron). Ultimate strength of materials is a limiting factor, and stretch is high by comparison to composite materials.

Cruising composite materials for use in Triradial construction come in two basic types: polyester and high modulus versions. The difference is in the type of fibers used in the scrim, (the ones that really do the work). For medium load applications, polyester fibers are used. For high load applications, high modulus fibers (currently either Spectra or Vectran are used). Recently, a third choice has emerged, PENTEX. PENTEX fibers are essentially a high modulus form of polyester, so their performance, (and cost), falls somewhere between polyester and Spectra or Vectran.

Most modern performance boats and BWY know the advantage of the Computer Design and professionally assembled shape.
Dont you just love technology?

BWY Todd Wrote:
So far it seems that the biggest performance improvement upwind may actually be in stronger winds. Under these conditions we sail with the keel down AND water ballast, making the boat VERY stiff. We have sailed in about 18Kts of breeze on Puget Sound with the ballast full and the boat was going to weather like a freight train! Fast, stable, and really easy to sail, we were easily able to sail away from boats that we know we would have had trouble beating in a stock boat. We did a horizon job on a San Juan 24 in about 45 minutes!

BWY Todd wrote:
I worked really hard to reduce weight aloft as much as possible, as this really helps stability. We replaced the cable shrouds with Samson Validator 12 line. The Val 12 is almost twice as strong as the cable, and has only a tiny bit more stretch. I spliced the line directly to the fittings on the mast to eliminate the weight of the shackles. We left the foam out of the mast to save weight and sealed all of the fittings watertight instead. This may seem a little extreme, but weight reduction starts with grams, becomes ounces, and then pounds. All in all, I was able to get almost 10# out of the rigging.

We chose to go with UK Diamond Tape Drive Kevlar and Carbon sails, they give really good performance, hold up well for race sails, look hot, and aren't nearly as expensive as some other high end sails

Measuring some modern composite Sails..

[Terry]

A few questions Leon,
Will your new Mainsail be a copy of the original or will it be larger, perhaps a larger roach or more square footage or even a longer foot or luff as it appears on mine that there is room to increase the foot & luff.
What are the benefits of a loose footed main over our current bolt rope setup.
Also since you have done much research you may also know weather it is better to get a new jib or genoa or both for someone who uses hank-ons.
What made you choose Quantum over say Northsails - I am contemplating new sails in the next year or so myself and may be visiting Northsails because they are a 15 minute drive from where I live. Do you suppose Quantum is a better choice for me even though Northsails is close by?
Did you make any modifications to the gooseneck, I have never been all that impressed with the one on my Mac, it seems a bit flimsy, even if it is SS.
Good luck with your new sails, I am green with envy!
PS I PM'd you.

[They Theirs]

What is the advantage or disadvantage of a loose footed main sail?

[delevi]

Terry,

I did not any roach or square footage for that matter. In my opionion, the size of the mainsail on the M is ample, particularly where I sail. Adding roach would probably add a lot more heel, something one cannot afford on the Mac.

I was originally going to go with UK, gut the more I researched the more I read negative feedback on the UK clear tapedrives, just not durable long term. Also, the loads are distributed in sections, not through the entire sail like with Quantum's Fusion X. I then shifted to North. I liked Quantum a lot but the price turned me off. I was actually ready to pull the tirgger on a pair of North sails when the Quantum rep called me. They were having a 10% off sale. After further discussion a bit of negotiation, I manged to get a 20% discount. At the end of the day, the price was the same as for the North Sails, and what I believe is a superior set of sails. I am still pondering whether to pay the extra 1/2 boat buck and get the main in Fusion X instead of the high quality Dacron.

As for loose, footed, I believe TT's link says it well. Every sail maker I talked with (5 total) recommended the loose foot. It seems like the bolt rope foot is old school, particularly on boats 30' or less.

Leon

[delevi]

Ahhhhh!!!!! I think I may spend the additional 1/2 boat buck and get the Fusion X main. TT, you're really pi$$ me off by making spend all this extra $$$. Stop making sense already!

[They Theirs]

It doesnt get any better than this.

The driving force behind the creation of Quantum Sails which has, in a very short time, established itself as one of the premier sail making groups in the world.

Quantum laminate and Mainsail Roundtable


Fusion X is a simple, elegant version of Quantums revolutionary Fusion technology that is setting new standards for performance ... MAINSAIL.

Fusion X mainsail

Fusion X is a whole new way of engineering & building your new sail

[delevi]

Ok, I know if I won't do it, I'll regret it. I changed my order. Both main & jib now Quantum Fusion X

TT & Frank, I'm sending you guys a bill




http://www.quantumsails.com/products/pl ... 1&PLIID=13

[jg9546]

OK. What is the bottom line for these new technologies and designs.
Would you please also give us how much are these new sails costs.

Jacek

[delevi]

I am paying just a hair over $3k for both Quantum Fusion X sails + tax. This reflects Quantums 10% fall discount and an additional 10% discount that I manged to negotiate. A pair of really good Dacron sails would run around $1800-$2000 depending on options. Full battens raises the price quite a bit for both the mainsail and the additional luff hardware required. I opted to not go for the full batten main, just the top batten full and the rest about 40% which is about twice as long as the stock Mac bats. The only real advantage to full battens is adding longevity to the sail, and it tends to be more advantageous on larger boats. The drawback is the ability to control sail shape, which is why I took the opposite route and went for the loose-foot main.

Leon