ive been TOLD to buy a sailboat!

[bob lee]

ok, the time has finally come, after a couple of seasons of chartering on the west coast, we are going to buy a boat to use in the area lakes, and maybe tow as far west as lake okanogan in b.c.

my budget is 10K and i've been looking at things like: catalina 18 / 22 i've also come across a 22ft mac as well as a 25ft mac, both well inside the budget. i have a few questions maybe someone can give me thier 2 cents wrth:
1: any thoughts on what handles better swing keel or wing keel from a sailing standpoint?
2: input on the 22ft / 25 ft macs?
3: we also have a towing issue, my truck is an 98 nissan frontier with a max tow load of 3500 lbs.
i HATE it when my wife tells me to find a boat to buy

[LOUIS B HOLUB]

Hi Bob...I owned a Mac 26-S prior to my 26-X. I highly recommend the 26-S (swing daggerboard). It has a water ballast, and would tow easily with your vehicle.
Consider this: Check out the Mac 26-S -- It has plenty of interior space, sails well with the water ballast, easy to upgrade, and pricing will be well within your budget. (Incidentally, the Mac 26-D is the same boat, but it has a dagger board that doesnt swing up and thus...easily damaged in my opinion). But both are great boats...An 8 H.P. moves the boat well when motoring...

[baldbaby2000]

I've owned a couple Mac 25's. Easy to setup and tow. Also sails fine. If you get to looking at one, check the hull for warping. If it has been towed and stored without the center board lowered so it rests on the trailer, the boat can be stressed a bit. Also the trailer bunks are not always adequate to support the boat properly. Other than that I like the boat.

Bald Baby

[Nevadacitybob]

might be too heavy for your Nissan. I have an '84 and love it for trailerability, handling and weekending, but it is 3,500 empty.
More comfort in a 26 (aft berth) and water ballst, that may be your best option.

[James V]

The wing keel is good in only one sea condition from what I understand. It is not that good of choice because when you go aground you need to lift the boat and cannot move the boat to one side without risking breaking the keel off.

If it is only you and your wife, the smaller boat would be OK (but, bigger is better). For a weekender a bunk, head and small galley is all that is needed. Adding a kid or 2, a bigger boat would be better.

Good luck.

[Moe]

The big advantage of a wing keel is shallower draft for the same keel weight/moment, but there are other advantages, as well as disadvantages. Wing Keel Pros and Cons

However, the advantage of a wing keel getting deeper rather than shallower when the boat heels is a disadvantage in that the trick of using a dinghy pulling on the mast to heel the boat to get a fin keel off the bottom doesn't work with the wing keel, and makes it worse.

But putting it in perspective, the 18's draft is 28"... my short-legged inseam and about waist-deep on 4' 10" Barb. The C22 wing keel isn't much deeper, at 32". The wing doesn't start at the leading edge of the keel, but back aways, so it isn't going to bury as far into a bank as the vertical part, especially considering the lower momentum of a 1500 pound displacement C18. Those who've grounded it, report getting it off with a 3-5 HP motor by moving the crew to the stern and having them shift sides.

With some experience now with both the MacGregor and helping friends launch and retrieve keelboats, including a Flicka Wednesday, I can say the MacGregor videos greatly exaggerate the ease of driving their boat on the trailer, as well as the difficulty of launching and retrieving a keel boat. A wing keel does require extra attention to get the wing under the keel guides (which do essentially the same thing as goal posts to center the boat) and not on top of them, so you can back in too far.

Click my WWW button below to see the mods we're making to the 18 to make it comfortable for two.

--
Moe (taking a sick day off work)

[bob lee]

moe;
your 18 looks great, what year is it? we can't find any used ones here, i spoke to a couple of brokers who tell me they get bought up instantly, and never get to the brokers. we are also considering increasing the $$ and going new.

a new 18 costs about 16k here, and its funny, i saw a 22ft catalina from 1985 listed for 9900, and i doubt it cost that in '85. so i'm guessing while boats are crappy investments, they don't seem to lose too much value over time. plus, my wife seems to be liking the idea of a new one, and who am i to argue with the boss..............................

[Moe]

Thanks, Bob. Ours is a 1999, the last year before the name changed from Capri 18 to Catalina 18. The deck and upper liner molds were revised in 2004, and it became the Catalina 18 mkII. It then went from boom-end sheeting to a barney post in the cockpit floor (a toe-stubber and shin banger as far as I'm concerned). The coamings became one level, better for sitting on, versus having a spray rail like ours. The cockpit seat backs became reclined for better cockpit comfort. The companionway bulkheads, handy for mounting stuff, were reduced, necessitating the power panel move. This makes it easier to store a whisker pole, boat hook, or fishing rods up under the cockpit seat backs, but besides reducing the bulkhead storage, it also makes it harder to hide a battery charger, audio amplifier, etc.

Since it was Catalina's first boat, and a popular racer, there are tons of C22s for sale. But there have been only about 700 C18s produced since 1986, and they generally sell within a couple of weeks of being listed. We drove 500 miles to Maryland the day after ours was listed to grab it.

Small Craft Advisor interviewed Shane St. Clair about his California to Hawaii voyage in the C18 and other adventures. It was a 2-part interview in the Jan/Feb 2002 and Mar/Apr 2002 issues (26X review in the latter) and back issues are still available.

Check your private messages here. I've sent you one with more detailed specifics and some resource info.

--
Moe

[Frank C]

1: any thoughts on what handles better swing keel or wing keel from a sailing standpoint?
2: input on the 22ft / 25 ft macs?
3: we also have a towing issue, my truck is an 98 nissan frontier with a max tow load of 3500 lbs.
i HATE it when my wife tells me to find a boat to buy

Any boat with a heavy keel, swing or wing, will have an advantage over a water ballasted boat in higher winds. However, heavy-keeled trailer boats have two disadvantages:

• 1. Any iron keel becomes a serious maintenance headache as the boat ages, and repairs are difficult. This is obviously worse for a boat stored in the water.
  
  2. Iron keels are obviously a towing disadvantage ... exactly the reason that Roger 'invented' the modern water ballast trailerable, and exactly the reason he has been so successful.

Final observation ... the 26D (daggerboard) performs better under sail, but the 26S (swing-board) is safer for skinny waters. Both of them are 10+ years old, either would easily fit your budget and either would be manageable with your tow vehicle.

P.S. Edit to add: there are two maintenance issues related to heavy keels as the boats age. First is the issue of corrosion - obviously worse with iron keels, obviously less concern, as Moe alludes, with a lead keel. Second is the issue of the way the keel is mounted into the hull, whether the pivot is substantial and how well the hull can carry the weight. In any of these cases repair means removing the keel. Google can reveal numerous stories of the trials and tribs that accompany refurb of a 500-pound keel.

[Moe]

Bob, just for the record, the C-18's keel is lead, not iron. That includes the new mkII models.

--
Moe

P.S. Edit to add: The C-18 lead keel is encapsulated in fiberglass and gelcoat, and the joint with the hull is glass taped over as well. The most repair you're likely to have to do to it is fiberglass work, either at the point of contact with an obstruction, or to the tape at the forward part of the joint. Catalina's repair recommendation is to cut that out around the crack and either fill it with MarineTex or optionally reglass it. In fairness, you don't even have to Google to find centerboard and daggerboard repairs. Just search here. The keel setup most likely to need repair is a weighted swing keel and there are probably more hits on those than for fixed keels.

[Divecoz]

My 05 Mac is the first boat I have had of this size , but I have owned numerous ski boats over the years in the 17 to 19 ft class. Is the Mac as easy as those to drive on the trailer ? No. Can I drive my Mac on the trailer first try everytime? So far Yes .
No doubt you can and will slosh around and get that Capri onto the trailer in winds that will require a better Captain on the Mac. We pulled our Mac out last Monday lots of BIG wind on Lake Michigan that day but with Audrey as catcher we did fine. Aud caught the boat I jumped off got the truck backed it in and drove on to the trailer. Then Audrey pulled us out and over to the lot. Looking back I should not have selected 4 wheel high and seen if the truck would do it in 2 wheel. I can also back the trailer into just about anything and anywhere I could ever need to. Some do it better some do it worse . Practice sure helps . I would think driving between the goal post is a lot easier than sliding the wing into the slot but again in time with practice. These two boats have almost nothing in common with each other BTW. If your thinking Capri 18 then a 26 foot sleep aboard is of no interest to you. On the other hand if your thinking 26 ft. Power sailor / cruiser /camper then a 17+ ft daysailor is not what your looking for either. Choices Choices and you now have all winter to decide and find the deal that suits you best . Good Hunting

[Moe]

These two boats have almost nothing in common with each other BTW. If your thinking Capri 18 then a 26 foot sleep aboard is of no interest to you. On the other hand if your thinking 26 ft. Power sailor / cruiser /camper then a 17+ ft daysailor is not what your looking for either.

Richard, a "daysailor" typically has no cabin, or at most, a small cuddy for keeping a few items out of the weather.

If you're not familiar with them, here's a whole class of cabin boats widely known as mini-cruisers, such as the Capri and Precision 18s, the Hunter 18.5, the O'day and Potter 19s, and others like them. MacGregor even made a powersailor in this class, the 19. They're also known as weekenders, and usually have a trailered weight in the 2,000 - 2,500 pound range.

Unlike daysailors, they have much more in common with the larger MacGregors than "almost nothing."

- They have berths, typically for two adults and two small children. A few have filler cushions that turn the cabin into one big bed, aka "play pen," like the Capri's.

- They have a head, typically the same 3-day, 2.8 gallon unit, but it usually isn't enclosed, requiring the addition of a curtain for privacy. Like the larger MacGregors, they also don't have shower stalls and drains.

- They typically have an ice chest. In fact, the standard Capri 18's is the same 3-day, 48 quart Coleman optional in the 26X, and like the 26X, the C-18 provides a storage place for it other than on a berth.

- Some have standard or optional galleys, with sink and single-burner stove. The Capri's option was under the port berth, but since ours didn't have that and we're empty-nesters, we'll put ours in the v-berth. And with very little work, we've added the same 10 gallons of freshwater capacity as our 26X, using the same jugs.

- Some have cockpits as long as even the 26X's, some with lockable cockpit lockers almost as voluminous as the large powersailors' open fuel storage.

- They typically have a forward hatch, but like the larger MacGregors, most don't have opening ports for ventilation.

- Some have the same size rigging and deck hardware as the larger MacGregors.

- They have single-axle trailers, which are adequate for them, and the base trailer models are usually painted. But they sometimes offer a galvanized option.

- Being under 20 feet LOA, they're federally required to have level floatation, but have to pass a test conducted by other than the marketing department to prove it.

There's no doubt the much larger boat has much more storage, especially for 4+ night trips away from land. But when it comes to weekend cruising and camping or marina hopping for longer periods, one might say the VW camper-like mini-cruisers are for "travelers," while the big "Waterbago" MacGregors are for "tourists.".

--
Moe (posting over WiFi at lunch)

[Divecoz]

I disagree Moe . These two boats are not similar enough to be compared as apple for apples . Waterbago whatever Moe . If someone was looking at The Ranger I wouldn't direct them to the F 150 area nor the opposite. No Galley No standing head room . Lots of other differences as well and too many to list . ALSO lacking the Mac's 3000# 's plus, load going down the road. No need for a Truck to haul the Capri . BTW you then owned a Waterbago for four trips on the water didn't you? Another thought that came to mind is. If your looking for cockpit space imho don't think Mac X or M . We find that cockpit space is really meant for 2 adults maybe a child or two added but when we had 4 adults in the cockpit , I found it just too dang crowded to be able to really sail. Several on this board may take exception to this line of thought , but I suspect they are better sailors than I and more confident in their skills . Kind of like the trunk space on a Cadillac versus a Lincoln . For such a big car the Cadillac doesnt have much of a trunk. For such a big boat the 26 M doesnt seem to have much in the way of Cockpit room .

[Moe]

Having owned both a Ford Ranger and a full-size Ford truck, there WOULD be times when I'd recommend one to someone looking at the other. But I sure wouldn't say they "have almost nothing in common." That was the point of my reply.

I was just messing with you about the traveler/tourist post and didn't mean "Waterbago" in a disparaging way. It's Frank C's moniker for them, and it fits. I did own one and took it out 4-5 days at anchor each time. That's where it really shined, and that, among other things, would make it a great choice for a North Channel cruise or Dry Tortugas run. But in the end, that's not what we needed for most of our use, and the Capri fits that better.

--
Moe

[Divecoz]

Thats fine Moe . I was just trying to point out that the two boats really are not that much alike. Both can no doubt cross the line into each others territory but I doubt they would do it all that well. I guess I might have fun sailing the Mac on a small lake but I have no doubt, I would have more fun in /on a smaller boat. Lots of Mac's have gone to the Dry Tortuga's but I have no doubt again, that at least 1 Cat /Capri 18 or something similar has done it too. They are very different boats . My Merc. 50 HP BF pushes WW&S at over 15 mph on any given day so far. However I have yet to have a day when a 9.9 wouldn't have done it all just as well. If I have made one mistake with my Mac, it would be, that I believe. . . . . . . . I wasted a lot of money over powering it . We will see what we will see in the future.
We are already thinking, that should that be how it is . We can always drop the Merc. on a 16 or 17' C.C. and go smaller on the Mac.