Propane, Butane or Alcohol

[Rob Roy Macgregor]

Not many camels up here, but moose........well that's a different story. Maybe, I should try some of the dried up moose residue this summer.
Actually, they are quite safe, as the flame is containe at the bottom and occasioanlly comes over the top rim. The principal is a water jacket around a chimney and it only uses a hanful of twigs. I find that junk mail works well in it and boils just as quicly as twigs!

[ssichler]

All those little wisps of gas released 4 times a day over the course of a weeks trip will add up. There's enough volume there to make a nice little poof if it finds a spark.

This sounds about as plausible as residual gas accumulating from the crew and blowing up. I will keep my eyes peeled for any mentions in upcoming issues of Seaworthy;)

[Frank C]

Actually Scott, I had the same thought. Seaworthy has Fire Stats as one of their magz headings.
Surprisingly, to me, stove fires fall to the bottom of Boat US insurance claims.

Regardless, I'm still of the same opinion as Duane. The vast majority of "boat propane" systems are formally installed by a MFG. These have all the safeguards Duane referred to, prescribed by the ABYC, like isolated stowage with overboard venting, solenoid-actuated valving, single-run supply hoses and automatic shut-down systems. The formal propane systems shut off gas flow whenever the fire goes out. So, I'd attribute that the low incidence of propane boat fires to formal propane installations.

By contrast, propane on a Mac is rarely, or never(?), "formally installed." Our portable propane usage is clearly "informal" and requires very knowledgeable attention by the owner, worse yet, by his guests. Yes, I DO USE PROPANE aboard my Mac, but rarely in the cabin. I'd bet very few people expect that, upon an ignition failure, the open propane valve is pouring the stuff into the bilge. Most would expect it's vaporizing into the atmosphere ...
Absolutely NOT TRUE. It's draining to the lowest place in your "vessel," now a mini-bomb.

Propane is potentially extremely dangerous aboard a boat. I caution my guests with every bit of the attention reserved for the more common aspects of boating safety.

Let me cite just this single "everyday example" about informal propane usage. Anyone who's ever had an ignition failure of the backyard propane BBQ should identify with how quickly a small bomb can collect. Ever light your match after a scant 3 or 4 seconds of gas flowing? I definitely don't want that scant amount of propane in my bilges - just 3 to 4 seconds of gas flow is potentially dangerous ... and how are you going to reverse that spill ... vacuum cleaner?? NOT me.

There was a member, either here or on Sailnet, who posted a story of his brother, who had to re-light his backyard BBQ after a flame-out. Apparently it was several seconds before he noticed the lack of flame ... yes there was clearly the odor of gas, but ... he snapped the foot-long lighter to restart the BBQ. The explosion detached the hinged lid, caused 3rd degree burns on face, arms & chest, and blinded him. It happens more quickly than we expect. Caveat emptor~!

[James V]

I do not have the suction cups. It does stay pertty much in place but I do not do more than 1 pan meals. When it did come off, everything on the table went on the floor to.

I don't know about the suction cups. I will not buy them as I am planing to install a one burner propane.

I find it quite amazing how much debate the different cooking fuels get on every forum.

It is just as dangerous in your house as on your boat. The houses do go boom as well.

[zuma hans 1]

I cannot even imagine the sizeable advantage of increased heat versus the tiny, fractional risk of explosion being a risk I will take.

Not worth it.

The label on my Coleman stove plainly warns against its use in an enclosed area. The Mac 26X is enclosed. The warning is correct. Period.

I also never park my convertible under any powerline.

[argonaut]

Yup, really interesting only 1% are attributed to stoves... maybe a bit more since some of the "unknown cause" stats could be stoves I guess.
But I remember reading a major sail mag article about stoves and the author basically said that he had been preaching opposition to LP gas on boats for years, and he had changed his mind. He noted the dangers we all are aware of, but after searching the world for boat fire statistics he discovered that the rest of the world was using LP gas widely and boats weren't exploding right and left. In fact he found what BoatUS reports, that most fires started from engine or electrical problems. The author cited the cost, availablilty, and convenience aspects of gas.
Ya have to use some common sense.

Here are possible options for a season, at Defender prices.
Kenyon portable butane stove and fuel cart. x 4 : $39 + $16 = $55
Origo single burner + fuel for a season. : $243+ $9 = $252

Now a two burner coleman type propane is nearly as cheap as the butane stove and cooks like a dream. The double origo could be in the $500 neighborhood.

The single butane is what I have and because it cooks so well I can't justify an origo for my weekender type sailing. Also have a propane Magma kettle grill that works great. Now Duane has a family to feed and he's doing longer cruises, His 2 burner origo is bolted in place, no digging around & setting up needed for it, and it has the advantage in fuel storage space and fuel safety. I like the Origo's features but so far I've found other things to spend boatbucks on.

Whatever you do, have a couple of marine extinguishers (BC type) and a CO/smoke detector on board and if you use common sense, statistically anyway, you should be fine.

[Craig LaForce]

I have put a bar sink in the galley, to the left of the old sink. both sinks drain directly out the original fitting, with the water loop trap removed by shortening the hose (originally done to avoid having to winterize the loop).

Then installed a bilge blower to reduce corrosion, apparently, the Tilex spray I used was putting chlorine in the bilge and reacting with any metal.

Now I plan to put the butane stove on a cross piece of plywood wood over the old sink mounted either on pins or maybe velcro.

All holes in the top are sealed with caulk (like around the new bar sink). Any small leaks should simply go down the drain.

I also run the bilge blower for a few minutes when getting on the boat, so should also take care of any wisps that escape.

The butane stove seems like an ideal solution, especially now that the butane cans can be obtained so easily, and at reasonable prices. A spare can or two would be stored in a bucket in the unused fuel locker.

[Frank & Meg]

Would those of you who find the risk of using propane below decks acceptable also smoke a cigarette while pumping gas?

[James V]

First - I don't smoke. I have seen people who have smoked and pumped gas.

One thing that people have not said is about other fuels leaking in the boat that when gone undetected, cause problems. This has happened as well.

You just have to make the choice which fuel that you want to use and what is your cruising area and the longest of cruise you will do. All of these factors is based on your decision.

Now you have your choices. There is no such thing as a totally save boat, car, house, cave ect.....

As a note, in the USA, less than 500 people die in a boat every year. In a car it is over 32,000.

[eric3a]

..

[beene]

I currently do not have a stove onboard. I bought a BBQ that I mount to the stanchion, kind of awkward place to use it I find, but at least the grease goes overboard and not into the boat. I was planning on buying either an alcohol stove or use my camping stove which is a Coleman 2 burner that uses those little green propane jobbies. After reading these posts, I still cannot decide which way to go. If I am going to use a stove, it would be inside the cabin at the galley. At 6’ I can stand there and use it the way it was meant to be used. DD has got me worried about using the camping stove.

If I…..

- made sure there were no leaks using soap
- attached the bottle outside, then brought it inside
- used Velcro to secure stove to galley top, which is similar to the x for galley sink draining leakage of fuel
- used the stove, staying with it the whole time
- shutting it off
- take it back outside to unhook bottle
- store bottles back in fuel locker and stove in cabin

…… is that safe enough?

[kmclemore]

If I…..

- made sure there were no leaks using soap
- attached the bottle outside, then brought it inside
- used Velcro to secure stove to galley top, which is similar to the x for galley sink draining leakage of fuel
- used the stove, staying with it the whole time
- shutting it off
- take it back outside to unhook bottle
- store bottles back in fuel locker and stove in cabin

…… is that safe enough?

IMHO, I'd say so, but then I'm a known deviant with a risk-taking streak a mile wide.

[Frank C]

... As for the type of cooking fuel: It's all about risk management.
As long as you're aware of the risk and mitigate them ...

Bingo!

beene,

Seems to me you are mitigating 97+ percent of your risks.
That's not to say, "Don't worry, be happy!" .... rather, "Be aware."

One cannot compare use of heavy gases on a boat, with same usage at home, or in an RV.
It's a watertight vessel~! May all our vessels be watertight, and remain that way.

It's important to avoid letting raw propane gas escape into a watertight vessel. A bilge blower is fine for the cases of gasoline, alcohol, turpentine, etc. Volatile fuels evaporate into gases that are lighter than air. They mix with air and eventually escape the vessel, as air is exchanged. But the heavy gases don't mix, and the bilge blower simply cannot clear every nook & cranny. The only ways to clear every nook are a vacuum cleaner, or drilling holes through the hull ... Not drillin' holes, and hopin' I never need to vacuum gas from a bilge.

This is surely a very small problem. What's the likelihood of spilling 5 to 10 seconds-worth of propane? I know how dangerous it is, and I know enough to turn it off if I hear a leak. Wait ... how do I turn off a green bottle that has no valve? REmove it? While in the cabin??

This is surely a very small problem. I know how dangerous heavy gas might be. Does my guest? If she's on the boat for an hour alone, will she consider my propane stove same as in her kitchen? Will SHE hear a tiny leak?

This is surely a very small problem. I never store propane in the cabin. If my guest tosses a green propane bottle under the galley, will I notice it? Forgotten under the galley, if it seeps a slow leak, surely I'll smell it as soon as I open the boat .... won't I ?? Unfortunately, first thing I usually do is hit the motor lift switch when I approach the stern, since it's easier to board with the motor up. If that just happens to snap a spark somewhere in the bilge-wiring to my battery? .... instant thru-hull!

But, how totally ridiculous ... cascading probabilities become vewy, vewy small potentials.

EXACTLY~! THIS is the real problem. When risk probabilities are very low, they're very easy to overlook. The result BECOMES an unknown and hidden problem. A formal, professional gas installation performs that risk management for us, automatically.

Otherwise, as Eric wrote above, we must manage that risk ourselves. I DO USE propane aboard my boat - it's cheap, effective, economical and convenient! We're ALL smart enough to manage these risks ... but the issue is not smarts. Since the risks are so minute ... and insidious ... the issue is simply one of vigilance.
/// Soapbox relinquished.

[LOUIS B HOLUB]

Get a Coleman cooker with the little propane tanks that screw into the side. You park these up top in the fuel locker. You can kind of tell how much they're good for by judging by their weight. Carry a few extra ones if your Mate is really into frying away the night.

Yep !
Our Coleman 2 burner, stainless steel, unit works fine. It folds up, and stores easily. Im amazed at the efficiency, nice blue adjustable flame, ease of cleaning, folds up for storage, and works well for home emergency use. The small portable fuel containers are easy to mess with too.
I found the 1 lb fuel containers on half price at Lowes $1.37, and took home a case yesterday.

[Frank C]

Yep ... I use a Coleman two-burner with the green bottles. Except mine has a BBQ grill over one burner, stove rack over the second burner. Folds up and stores in a plastic container .... under the aft berth.