Snap goes the steering

argonaut · Post by **argonaut** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:44 am

Finally underway again after months of distractions like work and family, my mate had the helm sailing a broad reach on a cool breezy day. "Hey, keep ypur course there" says I. " Your're heading up". "I -am-" she replied " but she's really fighting me today" she says.
..uh oh...not good. I tried the helm. Wow... a ton of weather helm, I almost couldn't hold the course downwind. Then a heard and felt a loud stacatto. .. SnapSnapSnapSnapSnap!, helm control disappeared we quickly rounded into the wind. Motor on..some control regained. Yipee. Luckily the steering was only slipping, not gone.
Sails down we limped back to the dock after scarcely an hour on the water.

So... I was wondering what options there are for a '97X with rotary steering. I see a lot of Teleflex refits, is there also a Uflex replacement for the rotary unit, and which replacement steering unit is best? I think I have a Detmar.

Dimitri-2000X-Tampa · Post by **Dimitri-2000X-Tampa** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:51 am

Argo,

Sounds like maybe your rack and pinion box came apart. The screws do get loose over time. I've had to tighten up mine 2-3 times now. You may want to look for a simple solution first.

http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6991
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=410

AndreEmmenegger · Post by **AndreEmmenegger** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:56 am

I have a 2000 model 26X. I just replaced my helm unit with a Telex ss141-10. I can't say enough good things about how much of an improvement this unit is. I can now steer with fingertips only. The installation is straight forward. Try to be gentle when you remove the rubber boot at the transome area. Otherwise you have to find a new one. Also I cut the top of the new hole, which is a bigger diameter, with the top being the same as the top of the previous hole.

Good luck

Andre

Dimitri-2000X-Tampa · Post by **Dimitri-2000X-Tampa** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:03 am

Oops, looks like you may not have the same R&P I have on my 2000X. Regardless, I do try to service my steering at least twice a year, both the R&P and the cable.

Duane Dunn, Allegro · Post by **Duane Dunn, Allegro** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:57 am

Go with the Uflex, it is a better constructed unit than the Telex. I have it in my '96 and it is a great replacement. Fits without any changes. It can be bought online, and I think BWY also sells them.

Frank C · Post by **Frank C** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:35 pm

There's been much discussion about the slop in our steering systems, so I took special note last week of how mine is behaving. I was surprised to see that there's almost zero play on the aft deck (26X). When my steering push rod moves the draglink, the rudders move immediately. It reassured me that I don't need a bunch of work on bushings for the linkage system.

However, I can see almost 3 inches of steering wheel arc (1.5" in each direction) before any impact on the draglink~! This "play" is clearly within the cable system itself. This must be slop in the pinion-to-rack, plus any movement of the under-cockpit cable sheath ... since the cable itself is hard-connected to the end of the rack. After reading this thread and Dimitri's links to earlier threads, I went surfing for solutions. I'm assuming my factory-installed system is Detmar, so I must change to something else. Looks like Teleflex and Uflex are the options.

Duane comments that the Uflex has a bronze nut at the end, still working after 10 years, so I called Uflex and confirmed they have bronze nut. I described our MFG situation, that the builder had switched from rotary to rack system in model year '99 due to problems with the rotary. Here's new info for everyone.

Uflex said rotary systems in the industry have always been just a rack bent into a circle around a pinion. The problem with both systems is the single contact point where the drive pinion activates the rack or the ring gear. But Uflex has just redesigned their rotary system so it now uses a planetary gear set with six points of contact. He strongly recommended upgrading from my current rack system to either of their planetary systems ...
1. Rotech - semi-feedback system @ ~ $140
2. Accura - zero feedback system @ ~ $170 ("non-reversible" per Uflex)

The Accura system ("non-reversible" or zero-feedback) will apparently eliminate ANY free movement by the steering linkage. It automatically "locks" the steering except for when the wheel is moved. Since I have the autopilot attached directly to the aft deck linkage, the zero-feedback clutches would lock the linkage and prevent the tillerpilot from operating -- so I ordered the Uflex Rotech w/ cable at 9 feet. (Yes, I am planning to replace my factory rack system with the planetary Rotech by Uflex, a rotary system).

However, the Accura planetary system seems a great choice for those without a tiller pilot (the vast majority of Macs) ... since it will lock the steering, it can serve as a pseudo-pilot by holding a fixed course, no steering locks req'd. I ordered from Go2Marine, but seems that BoatingSolutions.com might save a few bucks, better shipping costs.

BTW ... Uflex advises that the steering head and cable are both sealed with "lifetime lubrication." The only user maintenance is at the aft-deck support tube, through which the cable pushrod extends. He says that support tube should be well-packed with grease, annually, to prevent water from migrating to the cable itself.

beene · Post by **beene** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:47 pm

Great info thanks Frank.

I keep hearing about the lube problem with steering cable on the X. I guess because the M is on the inside, it does not happen, at least not as likely perhaps???

G

argonaut · Post by **argonaut** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:47 pm

I managed to pick up a Uflex Rotech system w/11 ft cable locally last week. Thursday I removed the old cable end by sawing it off (see below), today I installed the rest of it and it's sweet. Much thanks Frank and others, the Uflex -is- the way to go, having much more contact area and a nice bronze, not aluminum, end nut. Steering's back to normal. Seems like just over two turns lock to lock with rudders connected. Reasonable cost, about $135, and on the '97, no modifications were needed, it went in straight out of the box. Now for a test sail!
-------------------------
Replacement technique, aka the Argo "saw and thread" method. Sorry, probably more detail here than you guys need, this is mainly just to save some time for someone thinking of doing this. The detmars seem to eventually fail for some reason.

You can shoose to disconnect things, pull the old cable out, then climb below and pull the new cable in place.But if you saw the old cable end off and join the two cables temporarily, the new cable is easily threaded into the binnacle from the cockpit.

I had a seized aluminum cable nut on my old stainless transom cable bracket that had to be split to be removed... unscrewing the nut was impossible. So rather than pulling the old cable out through the stern opening I hacksawed the old cable end leaving about 18" so I could work on the stainless tube and the seized nut in my garage vise. The nice thing about doing it this way is you can then join the new cable to the old one end to end with tape making it an easy one person job to pull the new cable into place, working in the cockpit without on your back gymnastics below. A hacksaw is effective but tedious. 15 mins I think... Probably a 4" grinder with cutoff disk would do this in seconds ...

1 - After removing the old steering unit from the binnacle, detach the old steering cable. Cover the exposed cable, it's greasy.

2 - Saw off the motor end of the cable leaving 18-24" free to work with sticking out of the stern hole. After the old cable's cut, pull a few feet of the old cable at the console end to make room in the motor end.

3 - Insert the new cable's center core, (the end that will end up attached to the steering) inside the old cable sheath at the transom as far as it needs to go so the sheaths are touching. Wrap the joint with your favorite tape, masking worked for me.

4 - Now with both cables joined with tape, feed,pull,etc till you get the new end up through the binnacle cable tube. Voila!

5 - Install new steering bracket, (provided), three bolts. Feed new cable into unit, stbd side as i recall. Install 2 cable lock bolts. My helm unit wouldn't fit inside the console with the new bracket bolted tight as the new bracket is a recessed cup, where the old one is a simple plate, so there's less room in the console. To get the steering wheel shaft in it's hole just loose-fit the new bracket from outside the binnacle, insert the steering shaft, then lay the helm unit to the aside and tighten the bracket bolts.

6 - Now bolt in the new helm unit to the bracket, 3 allen head bolts.

I marked & drilled two small holes in console for the new plastic bezel, and I was done. Well after I did surgery on the stupid aluminum nut to extract it from the old stainless cable bracket. The new bronze cable nut should resist galling better.
Check to make sure the rudders move freely and in the direction you steer, you don't want surprises at the dock!

Frank C · Post by **Frank C** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:21 am

Thanks to Duane for the Uflex lead.
I just rec'd my UFlex Rotech on Friday!

Thanks Argo, for the installation hints.

But I'm curious about 2 things. First, I undertand that your main concern was to avoid re-threading it among the companion wires and cables that traverse that same path. But as stiff as this cable is, I cannot imagine how it's possible to just pull it through from the pedestal~!!

Second, you ordered an 11-foot cable, and I've seen here on the Forum that Roger's cable is only 8 feet. Was the extra length any problem requiring special management?

argonaut · Post by **argonaut** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:04 pm

I cannot imagine how it's possible to just pull it through from the pedestal...

Once the two cables are joined by burying the new cable's core in the old cable's cladding and taping the joint the whole thing feels strong and the overlapped joint resists breaking as it rounds a bend. My new cable described an 8" bend radius. Having never done it before it worked first time. Just luck maybe, but I don't know how or if an 8' cable would work... mine was 11' because that's one of the sizes the store had, and I had wanted a 10 footer. But see below!

Was the extra length any problem requiring special management?

I just measured the old cable and it surprise, it was a 144" Morse cable, so 12'?! I was expecting 8 to 10 feet, but not 12. My 11 footer was shorter but not much. Can't say for sure being owner #2 if it came that way from the factory. My cable is kind of dangling but I didn't want any sharp bends. I will clamp it back to the underside of the cockpit. I have a little concern that 8 ft is long enough. Maybe take out & measure the original before buying.

Frank C · Post by **Frank C** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:19 pm

argonaut wrote:
Was the extra length any problem requiring special management?
I just measured the old cable and it surprise, it was a 144" Morse cable, so 12'?! ... My cable is kind of dangling but I didn't want any sharp bends. I will clamp it back to the underside of the cockpit. I have a little concern that 8 ft is long enough. Maybe take out & measure the original before buying.

Thanks Argo.
I could remove the old one to measure first, but that blows the chance to use it for pulling the new one!
Too late, anyhow, the 9-footer I ordered from Go2marine has already been delivered!

Would you describe, again, exactly where you cut the old cable?? I guess you mean above the pushrod, cutting right thru the black cable sheath, or jacket? Guess you also needed to hack right thru the flexible cable itself? It's clear that you then insert the binnacle-end of new cable inside the old sheath, and bind them together.

I'll also post any "discoveries" to help others w/future upgrades.

Don T · Post by **Don T** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:28 pm

Hello,
Also be aware that the Uflex "no feedback" helm units exhibit play, if you want to call it that. There is always a few degrees of rotation, as the helm unlocks, before the cable moves. Well anyway, that's what mine does.

Duane Dunn, Allegro · Post by **Duane Dunn, Allegro** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:14 am

I would suggest not getting the 'No Feedback' models. They are great for under power, but for sailing you want all the feed back you can get. You want to be able to feel the load on the rudders. Stick with the cheaper standard model.

Frank C · Post by **Frank C** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:37 am

I phoned customer service at Uflex before placing my Rotech order (Go2Marine). I wanted to know more about the planetary gearset, wanted to understand if it's a good alternative to my rack & pinion, also wondered about the "non-reversible" feature on their upgraded product line, the Accura models.

Zero-Feedback: As mentioned earlier, Uflex's branding (non-reversible) is the same as zero-feedback. This feature is the only distinction between their Accura line and the Rotech product line. He didn't describe the "play" in that system, but it makes sense. Uflex are using clutches to absolutely prevent any movement of the cable unless induced at the wheel. Hence, the rudders could not spontaneously change angles, nor could the motor flop to either side. As I described earlier, this would definitely disable a tiller pilot that I connected directly to my aft-deck steering linkage.

Semi-Feedback: The tech at Uflex explained that the planetary gearset, featured in both product lines, almost eliminates feedback anyhow (he used the term semi-feedback). He wasn't even sure that the planetary "semi-feedback" will permit the tiller pilot to operate the linkage, wondering aloud if it might induce enough system friction that would impact the tiller pilot. I decided to wing-it and hope that the tiller pilot won't be affected

Steering Lock?? I don't have an Accura system, so I can't vouch for this concept -- but this "clutched" feature might be a handy alternative, as an automatic steering lock. It would permit leaving the helm for a couple of minutes once the sailplan is balanced ... no worries of a lift 'n plunge across the chop changing rudder pressures, and inducing a turn.

Don T ... wondering your experience regarding steering stability??

FWIW ... the tech guy at Uflex suggested there's no appreciable rudder pressure evident at the wheel from either system, the Rotech or Accura. Apparently the planetary gears absorb most of the return pressure. Except for my tiller pilot, I think Don's answer would dictate which system I'd choose.

BTW, opened my Rotech package last night, and it's a seemingly high-quality unit. The cable is beefy and the pushrod seems beefy too. The shaft turns very smoothly & quietly, and the steering head seems very substantial. But based upon the tech's description of the planetary system, Uflex might be the wrong choice if you're hoping for any rudder feedback at the Mac's steering wheel ... ... not planning to install the Rotech for a while yet, but I'll post my results & opinion later.

Don T · Post by **Don T** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:24 pm

Hello,
The helm is smooth as silk and indeed, the wheel stays in place when you release it. When I ordered mine from BWY the zero feedback unit was what they sent as a replacement for my Morse Unit. I think I would have prefered the standard unit with zero play instead. I find it difficult to leave the helm. My 240lbs of blast moving around the mac affects the balance and course too much.

I have considered taking it apart and disabling the no feedback clutches. I'm not sure if it can be done but I may try someday. Maybe the next time I have to service it.

MacGregorSailors.com

MacGregorSailors.com

Snap goes the steering

Snap goes the steering