Transom Wedge Results, and I'm a Moron

[deja_vu]

So last Saturday I finally had a chance to take the boat out. Forecast is for light to no wind. And I'm supposed to be working on our corporate e-mail system but I want to test the boat.

My choices are going up to a beautiful lake in the mountains that's nearly a two hour drive, or go to Utah Lake, which is only 45 minutes away and is the biggest fresh water lake around, but also only happens to be 8-14' deep.

I've avoided Utah lake to this point, because I don't like a 2'-4' margin of error under the daggerboard (most of the lake is around 8-10' deep) and who knows what kind of garabage is down there to hit.

Anyway, my server at work is running a process that should take all day, so I'm pretty confident in just leaving. I decide to head up to Strawberry Reservior in the mountains. The boat is ready, hooked up to the Tundra, family is loaded, but I decide to go check my server one last time before I leave. Of course it has crashed.

So an hour later things are fixed, it's now too late in the day to head to Strawberry and since there isn't supposed to be any wind to speak of, I figure I'll head to Utah Lake and motor around and test out the wedges and the fact that I lifted the engine a bit.

I get there and the family who pulls up next to me first asks how like I like my new truck, cause they have one on order, I mention it does a great job pulling the boat. Then he asks how much it costs to get into a MacGregor cause he's always wanted a boat like that. We talk for while..it's nice to have someone admire your boat, and I'm always happy to expound on its benefits.

Get the boat all setup, things actually go completely smoothly for a change. Someone else drives by and compliments the boat. So while I had been horribly frustratred by work and the late start things are looking up.

Since it's a new area as I drive towards the ramp I look for power lines, don't see anything, and then head down the one line entrance road. Next thing I know I hear crack, snap, crunch.....look out the rearview and it's raining branches.

While I was smart enough to check for powerlines in the parking area I never thought to look for branches overhanging the one lane road into the boat launch area. I mean come on.. there are sailboats in permanent slip sitting right in front of me, how'd they get there if not by going over this road?

I get out to look for damage, the branch I pulled down is 4" in diameter at it's base..big sucker but it's almost dead. The boat is covered in twigs that snap at the slightest touch. No visable bends to the mast, I think maybe I got lucky.

Then I notice the lower shrouds have far more slack than they should have. Can't find any damage to the base plates, mast is straight, no idea what the cause is for the slack..decide since the uppers are tight enough, I'll just take the boat out and not even attempt to sail. It's amazing how fast you can go from on top of the world, everyone loves my boat to "oh man, I hope no one just saw that, please make me very, very small."

We launch the boat. I put one rudder down and for some reason the boat just won't turn to port. I don't know if that's a side effect of the wedge or not, I don't remember that being an issue before. It's too shallow for the daggerboard so I drop the other rudder and get enough control to make it to the docks to tie up and load the family.

We head out on the water, I'm pretty depressed at this point...so far two trips out this year, and two times I'm damaged the boat by being stupid. Well at least I can see how well the engine works.

As I head out of the harbor my depth finder isn't even registering..I've got to adjust its minimum. I know it's at least deep enough for the rudders to be down. We clear the no wake. Time for full throttle, lets see what this baby can do!

Throttle up and wait, man this thing is amazingly unstable. Maybe these wedges were a huge mistake. Throttle down and oh, oops...rudders are still down, can't believe I forgot that. I haven't ever forgotten to do that yet, but first for everything. I now know that I've let all the frustrations of the day get to me and its to the point I need to relax before I do something really danagerous. At least I didn't try to turn with them down.

So rudders up and we'll try again. Engine is tilted all the way down and the boat doesn't really jump out of the water as much as I had hoped. First thing I notice is that I can actually see directly in front of me while sitting down. That is worth it on it's own.

I check the RPM and I'm only up to 5000, looks like no matter what the 14x11 just isn't going to cut it for speed here in Utah. This time I'm at about 4500' above sea level instead of the 6000-7000' mountain lakes I'm normally at. Up there I only get 4400-4600 RPM. I'm got a 14x9 that at 4500' will redline the engine. Guess I need a 14x10 for 4500 and the 14x9 for the higher up locations.

Anyway, I check the GPS and I'm only going 16.9 MPH. No matter what I do I can't break 17. Previously with the 14x9 at 5900 RPM I've gone 16.3 at this altitude (different lake.) So while I'm not overly excited about the perfomance gain from the wedges ( and it most likely is not the wedges. I haven't had a chance to try the 14x11 at this altitude before so the speed is more likely from the prop), I am very happy with the fact that I can at least see in front of me. That is worth the $40 or so it cost to do this mod so I do recommend it.

I'll have to get a 14x10 and see if I can finally get the speed I hope for out of this boat.

So anyway we motor around for a couple hours, and decide to call it a day. The mast isn't all that stable, the kid is getting cranky, my sister who was going to meet us in the mountains isn't interested in motoring around the lake that is practically in her front yard, and I really need to go check on my mail server.

Dropping the mast in the parking lot I find the reason for the loose shrouds. The metal strap that the shrouds connect to has bent down and dented into the mast about 1/4." Its still straight, just a little bit lower than it used to be. I think just tightening everything up should solve the problem. I don't see anyway to bend it back out, and if I did then it wouldn't be flush against the mast anymore.

While packing the boat up someone else asks how much they are and where he can get one...sure get lots of compliements on it.

So we drive over to my sisters and spend the evening watching the movie "Music and Lyrics." A choice she and my wife made. Not as bad as I thought it would be.

To top the night off, a turn signal light bulb on my trailer burned out on the way over to my sisters, and the starbord side lifeline dropped the pin on the way home and so it beat against the boat for who knows how long. The good news is it doesn't seem to have damaged anything.

You ever just think, maybe you shouldn't have gotten out of bed that day?

[kmclemore]

While packing the boat up someone else asks how much they are and where he can get one...

Wow... hard luck! Given how the day went, I'm surprised that you didn't offer to sell it to him on the spot!

[Frank C]

One o' those days ya shudda checked the Biorythm site, then gone back to bed~!

[Mikebe]

Hmmmm...sounds to me like you had a pretty GOOD day, all things considered. Why didn't your mast get broken off by the tree's you hit? Why didn't your rudders break off when you forgot to take em up? Why didn't the lifeline snag on something and rip your boat off the trailer?

I'm pretty sure that's how things would have turned out if I made those mistakes. It was definitely your lucky day.

I'm currently psyching myself up to lower my mast for the first time. Yeah, I know, what could possibly go wrong with that? But yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, your story comforts me....

[Mac Ziggy]

You’ve heard the story and may have seen the movie “A Bridge Too Far”? The sequel is “A Bridge Too Close”. You did fine.

[berjim]

The loose shrouds comments hits something I have been curious about. I have noticed that after sailing in heavy winds, by the time I get back to the dock my shrouds seem looser than when I went out. I have messed with the tuning some after the boat just wouldn't steer my first time out. We trailer the boat so every time we go out I tighten the turnbuckle on the front stay to a tension that "feels" about right and have the shrouds at a decent tension. After the strong winds the shrouds are loose. Is that normal?

Jim

[Frank C]

... I have noticed that after sailing in heavy winds, by the time I get back to the dock my shrouds seem looser than when I went out.
... We trailer the boat so every time we go out I tighten the turnbuckle on the front stay to a tension that "feels" about right and have the shrouds at a decent tension. After the strong winds the shrouds are loose. Is that normal?

I'd say (again) that changing the turnbuckle to help rig your boat is abnormal ... but since that comment began another recent thread ... maybe not so unusual.

• Do you use a wrench to prevent twisting the forestay?
• Do you wire the turnbuckle after rigging?
• If not, the turnbuckle might be unwinding.

IMO, it's more common to leave the standing rig settings untouched during launch & retrieve. I use the mast raising system to gain about half the forestay tension, and then pin the forestay using a foot loop.

Search on that phrase, click 'All terms' button ... several recent discussions.

[berjim]

Frank, I have read some of the previous posts including yours on the loop and the foot thing. I was surprised that no one did what I do which seems much easier that everything else I have read. Being fairly new to sailing and Mac Land I assumed my method wasn't accepted as "normal" even though it seems to work great for us. We hook a short rope to the front stay, I lift the mast up with my wife on the tongue of the trailer. She pulls the stay to her with that short rope and connects it as I push against the mast. We then tighten the turnbuckle. We do use a wrench to keep from twisting the cable. On the high wind days the stays don't seem to loosen, its just the shrouds. I'm not an engineer but it seems like the major stresses would be on the shrouds, not the stays. That is what made me wonder if the cables actually stretch some.

BTW It isn't unusual for us to come in behind another sailboat that is launching and be set up and under way well before they are.

Jim

[Frank C]

Jim,
Your forestay pinning technique makes sense too.
I use the foot loop for solo mast raising.

I think the answer is yes, the shrouds will stretch a little over time, but that's 'very little.' Surely they're not stretching enough to be visible during a single afternoon's sailing. That's why I wonder if you're pinning the turnbuckle screws to prevent unwinding ... which is the only reason I could imagine for the rig's noticeably slackening in one day.

[berjim]

The turnbuckle could be turning as I don't pin it. The holes are so small that I don't know what to pin it with. I didn't think I could find a cotter pin that small.

Jim

[Highlander]

Jim

When I bought my mac used 4yrs ago one day at the ramp the first month I had her I was pinning the genny furler went to release the gin pole & suddenly furler comes swinging back phew that was lucky a couple seconds later that mast would have came crashing down, lucky I was not on the lake riding the rough stuff
Anyway found that the turn buckle was not pinned , W/M carries the ss cotter pins they do come that small & any marina should also have them I ended up puting mechanics wire through them for the rest of that day. I always carry about a dozen in the boat for spares diffrent sizes.I also check them frequently

Cheers John

[berjim]

Thanks John. I will order some. I do keep some fine wire in the holes to slow things down some I but I don't think it would totally prevent it from turning out. The turnbuckle came loose while either rigging or taking down (don't remember which) once on my older M25 and it scared the daylights out of me thinking that it could have come down while on the water. I have kept a pretty close eye on things since then.

[daver360]

I had a rough start also last year. You will come up with a routine with your boat though, just like makeing coffee in the morning! Im on my second year and things just keep getting better! I can just about keep up with the best of them now, and there just isn't anything more I like then to take the boat out. By the way, Im one of thoughs guys who took off with the rudder and centerboard down. Im sure theres alot more! Your speed wasn't that bad either really. Take care!

[Frank C]

d-j ... Your post had so much data it took awhile to comprehend it.
Still pretty sure I'm missing some of it, but here goes ...

deja_vu wrote: ... We launch the boat. I put one rudder down and for some reason the boat just won't turn to port. I don't know if that's a side effect of the wedge or not, I don't remember that being an issue before. It's too shallow for the daggerboard so I drop the other rudder and get enough control to make it to the docks to tie up and load the family.
I guess I missed the diagnosis of this turning problem. You think you found it?

Throttle up and wait, man this thing is amazingly unstable. Maybe these wedges were a huge mistake. Throttle down and oh, oops...rudders are still down, can't believe I forgot that. I haven't ever forgotten to do that yet, but first for everything. I now know that I've let all the frustrations of the day get to me and its to the point I need to relax before I do something really danagerous. At least I didn't try to turn with them down.
Most of us make that mistake at least a couple of times, leaving foils down, at speed. It's a scary feeling, feels much better after realizing & fixing the problem ... at that point, just feeling foolish. No harm, no foul.

I check the RPM and I'm only up to 5000 ... looks like no matter what the 14x11 just isn't going to cut it for speed here in Utah ... at about 4500'
No surprise, methinks. Most guys use that prop for max performance at sealevel.
WOT on my Suzi-60 is 20 mph at sea level & I'd guess WOT at 4500' would be 17 mph (with luck).
Sounds like you're already there. Ya gotta expect lower speeds at altitude. Seems you might go a bit faster (as you surmised) with 14x10.

I'm normally at...6000-7000' mountain lakes ... Up there I only get 4400-4600 RPM. I'm got a 14x9 that at 4500' will redline the engine.
... Guess I need a 14x10 for 4500 and the 14x9 for the higher up locations.
... Anyway, I check the GPS and I'm only going 16.9 MPH. No matter what I do I can't break 17.
... Previously with the 14x9 at 5900 RPM I've gone 16.3 at this altitude
... I'll have to get a 14x10 and see if I can finally get the speed I hope for out of this boat.
Pardon, but I had difficulty tracking all those stats, partly because elevations and rpms are so similar.
Sounds like redline is 5900 rpms?
Sounds like your max range must be ~5200 to 5800?
Seems your WOT = 16.3 mph at rpms (5900?) on 14x9 prop at elevation 4500'?
Don't see your quote of WOT or rpms on 14x9 prop at elevation 6000'?
Even so, sounds correct that the 14x10 should be ideal for mid-altitudes.

So while I'm not overly excited about the perfomance gain from the wedges ... I am very happy with the fact that I can at least see in front of me. That is worth the $40 or so it cost to do this mod so I do recommend it.
Agreed. I don't think 60 hp is enough to climb on top and level out. The best hope from wedges is just a more favorable, slightly more level attitude.

Dropping the mast in the parking lot I find the reason for the loose shrouds. The metal strap that the shrouds connect to has bent down and dented into the mast about 1/4." Its still straight, just a little bit lower than it used to be. I think just tightening everything up should solve the problem. I don't see anyway to bend it back out, and if I did then it wouldn't be flush against the mast anymore.
Sounds like that will prevent your mast rotation. You may need to bend it clear and then fair the mast. Maybe that spreader bracket needs a nose bearing ... sorta like the nose bearing hanging down on a router bit's shaft.

[deja_vu]

I still am not sure on the turning problem. I do know that with two rudders down it turned ok. One thing I've noticed is that I can turn the wheel a bit farther to starboard than to port. I can't find anythign binding on the outside so I guess I'll need to pull things apart to look for something binding internally.

Redline is 6000 RPM. With the 14x9 I pegged it at 6000 RPM and 16.3 MPH at 4300', which is actually a bit interesting. You are only supposed to get a 200-300 RPM increase with each degree of pitch, so that result is a bit odd. I ought to be getting 5600 with the 9. One differences is the 9 is the prop made for the BigFoot with the soft rubber hub, and the 11 is a standard Merc prop. That shouldn't matter though as far as RPMs are concerned.

Having trouble picturing what you mean with the last statement. I can picture a bearing from a router bit, just don't get where it would attach. One thing I wasn't clear on is it is the upper shroud straps where the forestay and upper shrouds attach. Picturing the forces involved I've changed the pivot point for them slightly downward, and and less forward. the lower pivot point for the spreaders is now a bit more forwards as is the lower shrouds pivot point.

The interesting thing about the mast's rotation is that neither of those pivot points is truely directly in line with the actual center of rotation along the bearing at the bottom of the mast. To do that they would have had to have built an bottom cap with a strongly reinforced platform that had the bearing jutting out a bit forward of the front of the mast. Instead the whole thing has to kind of pop a bit and if you get the shrouds too tight it just won't rotate anymore.

So you may be right, because the uppers are no longer in line with the rest of the attachment pivot points that it won't rotate properly. The other possiblity is since I've moved the pivot point closer to the "true" pivot point it'll work better. Hopefully I'll find some time today to work on it and figure the whole thing out.