Factory Doyle Mainsail

[MadMacX]

Hi Guys,

When I purchased my boat it had had a Porpoise, loose footed mainsail, which has worked well all summer. I want to send it off to be cleaned and refurbed (SailCare), so I will replace it with the factory Doyle sail that also came with my boat. While unpacking the Doyle, I noticed that it is in excellent condition, no rips, marks, wear or mold. It does however, appear that it is rather "limp", like it might be stretched, or "blown out". My question is, is it worth sending it out to be cleaned and refurbed, or should I just use it as a backup mainsail?

I also noticed that the Doyle has three plastic gizmos (very hi tech) sewn along the leech at about 6", 3' and 6' above the clew. They seem to allow for the "tightening of the leech. Can someone tell me what they are and what is their purpose?

Thanks,
Pat

[Hardcrab]

I've alway assumed that they are "cleats" for tensioning the leach line. At least thats what the only one I've messed with does. I've adjusted mine a few times to reduce flutter and remove leach curl.

[DanBurke]

Pat,

Save your time and money- purchase a new C2000 mainsail from KH Marine. The pricing is phenominal and improvement in your performance will make wonder why you didn't do it sooner. In my opinion, the stock Doyle sails are garbage. See my post regarding new sails in the Performance and Tuning section.

Regards,
Dan.

[Hardcrab]

DanBurke,
Just curious as to where you think the performance improvments actually come from with the KHM sail.
I understand that a heavier Dacron is used, but this shouldn't cause any major performance improvment.
What are the gains you have personally seen?
Is it more roachy?
Does it have less/more draft?
In what average winds do you sail?
What wind range does the improvment show up in? Heavier/lighter air?
As I understand it, the average local conditions should be considered in the design.
Is it harder to flake and bungee to the mast, and does it keep "storage creases"?
Any other differences you can highlight will be welcome.
Many thanks for any info you can shed, as I'm getting close to buying a new sail and I've been considering the C2000 main over the stock main.

[Terry]

DanBurke,
Just curious as to where you think the performance improvments actually come from with the KHM sail.
I understand that a heavier Dacron is used, but this shouldn't cause any major performance improvment.
As I understand it, the average local conditions should be considered in the design.
Any other differences you can highlight will be welcome.
Many thanks for any info you can shed, as I'm getting close to buying a new sail and I've been considering the C2000 main over the stock main.

HardCrab;
There are a few of us in the same market as you, all doing the same research, asking the same questions and following the same pertinent threads.
From a purely speculative standpoint the KH C2000 is likely the best replacement at the best cost. The heavier Dacron would contribute to longevity and prolonged sailshape. Certainly local conditions merit consideration but matching the sail to the boat should take higher priority. Mike Inmon brought this to light in another thread and in doing so has heavily influenced my own decision. Basic performance improvements are a foregone conclusion with a new sail versus and old blown out one, even a new original oem doyle sail would be an improvement but would not last any longer than the first sail did. I would speculate that the KH C2000 would hold its's shape for many years longer and would have a much longer lifespan as well. It also has a few more details attended to over the oem if you read the description on the KH sail page. To get any bigger performance gains you would have to pay double the amount of money for Pentax or get something custom with a larger roach either way has it's costs. Consider Franks' winnebago comparison comment, it really makes sense.

[Hardcrab]

As far as winds and local conditions go, I do firmly believe a prospective sail buyer needs to keep this on the front burner, but I'm not trying to start a mess.

For example, someone who sails the frisky high winds of San Fran bay should not have the same new sail requirements as someone sailing in less windy San Diego.

A performance gain for a guy in SF would perhaps be a less drafty sail and different reef points over the stock sail.
Meanwhile, the SD guy would most likely lose performance with this "superior" SF sail, and do much better with a stock type draft and standard reef point for his local conditions.

Meanwhile, the boats have remained the same, with the sails matched to the conditions and not to the boats.

Hence the question about DanBurke's local conditions for his stated performance gains.

I'm guessing that the stock sail is a well thought out "middle of the road" compromise to all of the places Macs get sailed in around the world, leaning more towards the "lighter air" side of the spectrum. With that said, I wonder where the KHM sail falls into this spectrum.

Of course I could be wrong on all of this, but that's my take on it.
Thanks for yours.

[MadMacX]

Hi Guys,

Well, maybe I did not articulate myself well enough. I am not in the market for a new mainsail. I was only asking if anyone on the board has ever sent their factory stock Doyle sail out for cleaning and refurb to some shop like SailCare, and if so, was it worth the time and expense. The Doyle is only a backup sail.

The Porpoise loose footed mailsail I have on my boat is only about 2 years old and performs quite well for the light winds we see on my lake. So for right now, I am not interested in replacing it, however, the information that was provided will be of value when I do replace my present mainsail.

Regards,
Pat

[bscott]

My powersailor theory for mountain lake sailing on a close reach:
1-4 knts wind, E-tec on, bimini/lunch/beverage-yes
5-10; Dissconnect E-tec steering, cruising kite, main halyard eased, topping lift hard, outhaul and vang eased, backstay eased, traveller eased. Toss the bimini.
11-15; 100% jib, main halyard hard, topping lift off, outhaul hard, vang hard, backstay hard, traveller hard.
16-20; 100% jib with car slighly back, jib halyard hard, first reef in the main, everthing else hard. Reconnect E-tec steering.
21-25; 50% jib with car forward, second reef in main, hatch board in place.
26 + E-tec on, furl the main and jib, E-tec @ 2,500 rpm, foul weather gear on.

How do I know we we reach the above wind speeds? Answer, I can tell by my wife's voice
Mountain lakes can rage from zero wind speed to 30+ in five seconds which is why we do most of our sailing with 100% jib and reefed main if newbies or grand kids are aboard.

It's relatively easy and fun to control sail drafts on heavier sails with halyards, cars, main sheets, vangs, outhauls, leech lines, and backstays. No sailing yacht is plug and play so studying sailing dynamics is a crucial part of the game if you want to maximize your fun factor.

I agree with Hardcrab if you are in a light wind sea breeze venue. But hardcore sailors will have Number 1-3 jibs and at least 2 weights of mains on board. SO, we are powersailors that, by design, pride ourselves on our versatility that we can visit numerous venues with varying wind conditions from the interstate to 8,000'. For that reason, I trust my boat to more robust canvas than the Doyle OEM.

Bob

[puggsy]

I, also, am not all that happy with the Doyle. It seems constructed too light for its size. 9 x 3 metres.
In our regular sea breezes that crack in at 25 - 30 knots, I fit the ...as new...main from my previous little ship....If you use your imagination you can picture it on the



It was built by Halsey in Fremantle [ measuring 7 x 2 metres ] and is as strong as...and can be further reefed. And with full battens and extra large slides on the batten lines....
And better quality cloth than the Doyle...
The Doyle I can use when the easterly winds are down around 5 knots...
Puggsy