Wheelbase and towing (again !!)

[deacm]

I know this topic has come and gone many times before but would like to run it past everyone again with a TANDEM trailer in mind. I currently am towing my boat on a tandem trailer with a Ford F-150 extended cab and a 4.6L V8. I am thinking about combining my F-150 and VW Jetta diesel and trading them both in for a VW diesel Toureg (plenty of power but short wheel base) . Given that there is about 24 inches difference in the wheelbase betweeen these two vehicles, what kind of problems am I asking for to tow a boat and tandem trailer (semi-truck slipstreaming, sway, fishtailing etc etc) Thanks

[trapeze]

I pull mine with a 2000 Xtera SE. It pulls, brakes and handles great. I have a single axle trailer. When pulling with a double axle trailer, take care to set you ball height to allow the trailer axles to be level, to balanced the load on both axles.

2000 Xtera SE specifications:
Wheel Base: 104.3 in
Width: 70.4 in.
Curb Weight: 3821 lbs.
Engine Size: 3.3 liters
Horsepower: 170 hp
Torque: 200 ft-lbs.
Maximum Towing Capacity: 5000 lbs

2005 Volkswagen Touareg V10 TDI AWD
Wheel Base: 112.4 in.
Width: 75.9 in.
Curb Weight: 5825 lbs.
Engine Size: 4.9 liters
Horsepower: 310 hp
Torque: 553 ft-lbs.
Maximum Towing Capacity: 7716 lbs.

This VW will pull your Mac great! With all that torque and HP, you may find you have a 29 foot boat, when you get to the dock.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Wow, that is one HEAVY VW. You shouldn't have any problem towing with that one...plus, German engineered cars are usually "stiffer" too which is good for towing. I think I'll add that one to my research list too. My single brother was looking at those but ended up getting a Honda Odyssey instead. He doesn't tow anything though.

[deacm]

Traepeze: You don't have any trouble with sway on the interstates with your Exterra and it's short wheel base? Man, I used to white knuckle it with my single axle trailer and Ford Sportrac. Your wheelbase is almost 3 feet shorter than my F-150..........I can't imagine you'd not feel that difference........but then what do I know, that's why I'm posting the original question.

[Kevin]

I got all excited about this potential VW tow vehicle. Then I did an internet search and turned up this stuff.

http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/local_ ... 55456.html

That has me a bit concerned.

Still the rated towing capacity is listed as 7,716 Lbs. That's more than even my Mac!

[Jeff Ritsema]

HiYa Deac,
I don't know if we have talked about tow vehicles, but I did buy a Chevy Trailblazer Ext with the larger V-8; been very happy with it on the X-way.
Tracks well and power enough to climb hills. Seems to be a good balance of power and wheelbase. Ron Porter has been happy with his Trailblazer in the standard size, but I felt the added wheelbase and larger engine would prove better long term.
Jeff.

[trapeze]

Traepeze: You don't have any trouble with sway on the interstates with your Exterra and it's short wheel base? Man, I used to white knuckle it with my single axle trailer and Ford Sportrac. Your wheelbase is almost 3 feet shorter than my F-150..........I can't imagine you'd not feel that difference........but then what do I know, that's why I'm posting the original question.

When I first bought her, I picked up Sylives Follie in Maryland and drove her home 1000 miles in one day. I avg 70 mph with no issue at all. She brakes, tracks and accelerate well. I do find it better to lock out the OD in hilly terrain, or the transmission tends to search.

I have been towing things, mostly my travel trailers for about 27 years. I traveled and trailered full time for about 15 of those years. Logged a lot of miles pulling things in those years. I may have built up a tolerance to acceptable stability and sway, but I do not think that is the case with my Xtera. It truly pulls and handles like a dream. I would like it if it had a bit more braking power, but my trailer brakes seem to handle the job just fine. I do worry that braking would be an issue if I lost my trailer brakes, so maintenance and checks are a priority.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Looks like the same artistic license was taken with the VW as Roger took with the Taurus. I would guess the problem described was the ability to use a load equalizing hitch. Not something that applies to towing a Mac.

While a longer wheelbase vehicle will certainly be better given everything else is the same, the real key is a stiff rear suspension. Todays SUV's are being designed with a decidedly cushy on-road suspension which hurts their towing manners. This is particularly true of the small and mid sized SUV's 99% of which are just used like tall cars. Even my 1/2 ton Suburban's rear suspension is too soft. My previous old 3/4 ton Suburban was built in the days when they were made like a real truck, not a limo, and it towed the Mac far better. Perhaps the German heritage will give the VW a stiffer rear unlike it's soft American counterparts. You might investigate the suspension design and determine how difficult it would be to stiffen if it turns out to soft. Some are easy to augment with simple bolt on helper springs. I plan to do this to my Suburban if it ever makes it's way up the to do list.

[trapeze]

Looks like the same artistic license was taken with the VW as Roger took with the Taurus. I would guess the problem described was the ability to use a load equalizing hitch. Not something that applies to towing a Mac.

Kevin,

Thats an interesting artical you found.

Duane,

I too think the issue is isolated to the hitch required for an Airstream, not an issue with the VW itself.

The article states

What's the problem? According to his local Airstream dealer the Touareg's towing hitch is not compatible with the trailer

I know from experience that Airstream trailers (barring the really small ones) require a load equalizing hitch. This kind of hitch is not necessary pulling your Mac. Especially if it is a tandem axle trailer. My gut feeling would be that this VW would pull the snot out of a Mac.

[Moe]

One thing that matters when comparing wheelbase is the rear overhang. The shorter it is, the greater percentage the wheelbase is of the front axle to hitch ball distance, so for a given wheelbase, the less influence trailer sway has on the tow vehicle. The rules of thumb apply to vehicles with a typical wheelbase to rear overhang ratio. The Touareg has relatively low rear overhang, so its short wheelbase isn't quite as bad as it looks.

There were three cases of Touareg/Airstream pairings I recall on that forum. The first was right after the Touareg came out with ads showing it pulling an Airstream vs a New Beetle doing the same thing with it's front end in the air. It was a disaster and resulted in a lot of bad press for VW in many RV forums.

IIRC, the Airstream was a 7300 lb GVWR 25' CCD (lightweight line) like that shown in the commercial. VW told the owner they would void the warranty if he used any other hitch than theirs. Problem is, VW's wasn't weight distributing, and again, IIRC, was only rated for 500 lbs dead tongue weight. So the owner used the VW hitch and got the tongue weight within specs. Anyone who's towed with too little tongue weight can imagine the results! It was a dangerous nightmare. In the end, VW bought the Touareg back from him.

Since then VW has beefed up the hitch to 770 lbs dead tongue weight and 7700 lbs pull weight, but it still isn't weight distributing, AFAIK. The air suspension does level the rig somewhat, but air bags DON'T redistribute weight leveraged off the front axle onto the rear axle by the tongue weight on the ball. I don't know about the Touareg, but on a truck, that's probably not a real big issue with front end weight of a diesel engine and 4WD front axle. And with its less of an issue with lower rear overhang.

The Touareg "expert" on that forum (Xray) is towing a 5000 lb GVWR 22' CCD (very lightweight for an Airstream, also only 8' wide). And there's even a guy towing a 7300 lb GVWR 28' Safari with one of the newer Touareg's, and with sufficient tongue weight, and he claims no problems.

So while these Airstreams aren't being used with hitches that also provide sway control (friction-bar, Equal-I-Zer, Dual-Cam, Hensley, Pull-Rite), they at least have electric trailer braking. Manually applying trailer brakes while not braking the tow vehicle can straighten out a swaying rig if it doesn't get too bad. You can't do that with surge brakes.

I've tried to be objective in providing this information. If I already had a lot of money tied up in a short wheelbase vehicle and wanted to tow a Mac, my perspective might be a little different, but I wouldn't intentionally buy a short wheelbase vehicle after I already owned the boat.

Can you safely tow a tandem-axle Mac with a Touareg? My personal opinion is yes, barely. But I'd definitely set the trailer axles so that there was AT LEAST 10% tongue weight, preferably 12%, and that's with the Mac completely loaded with all the stuff that would be in it when towing, especially full fuel tanks near the stern.

Hope this helps,
--
Moe

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Moe, I don't follow you. There are quite a few people including myself that safely tow a Mac with a class2 tow vehicle, yet you are saying that a vehicle with more than double the towing capacity is just barely capable??!?

My guess is that these capacities are on the conservative side to begin with. We have Macs safely being towed in Europe with vehicles smaller than my minivan.

Also, I thought by having tandem axles, the potential for sway was greatly reduced?!? At least, that is what I have heard on this forum from people who have added another axle.

[Catigale]

I tow Catigale with a 2002 Eurovan which works great.

The Toureg would be my dream vehicle except I would have to sell the boat to afford it. That TDI looks like a perfect match for our rigs - and great gas mileage too.

Everyone on the list should buy one so the used market will be good in 4-5 years for me ....

(Political diatribe to follow) - The right business decision for VW is to give the whiner his money back, but I cant help thinking....

You spent 40k for a car because the dealer told you "it would work fine" and you saw it on a TV ad??

How about a bit of real research??

Hello?? Any gray matter in there???

[craiglaforce]

Just a note to concur with some of the earlier opinions. The SUVs that I have tried to tow with (trailblazer and Envoy) both were white knuckle rides swaying almost out of control on the highway at 50 mph when trucks passed me. The suspension was way too soft and springy (at least on the vehicles I tried). I got the feeling that if I sped up to 60 mph and a truck passed that I would totally lose control of the vehicle. I finally bought a used high mileage '93 conversion Van (Ford E-150 with 5.0 liter V-8). Superb control with the real truck frame and suspension, plus it is just very convenient with all the room and amenities in the van. The van would barely run when I bought it (so got a great deal on it). Did a few days of tuneup work on it and it runs like new now. Still haven't checked the fuel economy yet. I expect around 16 mpg after the tuneup.

Things I like about the van
- You can stand up inside and walk back, open the back door and step right onto the mac trailer when launching. no wet feet.
- WHen backing up or trying to hitch the ball, having the back door open lets you actually see the hitch ball and coupler. No more getting in and out 5 times to hitch up the ball.
- I can toss my bike in the back to get some riding in when not sailing.
- Can haul wood in the back.
- Transmission is strong enough to avoid any worries about towing damage
- After a day's sailing it makes a good living room with the rear captain's chairs, color TV and VCR.
- Rides like a dream and the view is superb
- will haul anything you can think of to support sailing trips, spare tire, bimini, Coolers, clothes, Bikes, kayaks, whatever.

Cons:
The fuel costs. Nothing like the shock of watching a 40 gallon gas tank get filled up for the first time.

Can't go too wrong with cheap old American iron. As long as you don't mind feeding it the gas.

[Robert]

If you have an Envoy or Mountaineerr or other cushy SUV with "luxery boulevard ride", and you'd rather not replace it, Or if you have a full size conversion van (full size conversion vans are notorious for having inadequate suspensions) Or if you want a great deal on a well used tow vehicle,
..
Just do a little research on the suspension upgrades available.
1.) Top handling tires with the proper pressure (+4 lb. when towing)
2.) Shock Absorbers designed for control (not the mushy ones)
3.) Poly Sway Bar bushings can be as little as $20 for all four wheels
4.) Upgrades to the springs, or air bag spring assist in side the coils
..
My point: Suspension upgrades are inexpensive and make a huge difference. Your existing tow vehicle after a suspension upgrade is likely to sway less than a new tow vehicle with the cushy new suspension.
..
Most vehicles can be upgraded in the suspension in a way that makes them much better for towing, without making the ride harsh. Check out the Nitrocharger Shocks and Bushings and Hardware section of this web page http://www.arbusa.com/ There are many other similar products from other manufacturers. I like the OME low pressure nitrogen shocks because they are very soft and gentle over little bumps like cracks in the road and they get tough on the bigger bumps, they are also longer travel and built very strong for long life.
..
For tire learning look up some web pages that offer comparisons:
http://www.tirerack.com etc... Look for the tires that say they offer good handling, they will cost a bit more, but they make your driving much more enjoyable and far safer. For example look for best "Cornering Stability" on this chart: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyres ... p?type=HAS

[Frank C]

. . . The Touareg "expert" on that forum (Xray) is towing a 5000 lb GVWR 22' CCD (very lightweight for an Airstream, also only 8' wide). And there's even a guy towing a 7300 lb GVWR 28' Safari with one of the newer Touareg's, and with sufficient tongue weight, and he claims no problems.

. . . But I'd definitely set the trailer axles so that there was AT LEAST 10% tongue weight, preferably 12%, and that's with the Mac completely loaded with all the stuff that would be in it when towing, especially full fuel tanks near the stern.

Mine is probably a much less experienced opinion than Moe's, but I feel that adequate tongue wt (I feel 8 to 10%), with an adequately stiff rear suspension, are the main caveats to comfortably stable and safe towing. Of course, the tow vehicle should have at least 5000 capacity, but with those criteria met, I'd not worry too much.