Anchoring with dyneema on a geared reel winch

[Ixneigh]

Dyneema has a fabulous breaking value. 8000 lbs for 1/4 inch.
Why couldn't someone use a trailer type geared reel winch to just wind up a hundred or so feet. The good pulling power would allow routine anchoring with 25-35 pound ground tackle.

Hypothetical. Reel winch mounted to base of mast with quick release. Short length of half inch nylon armored with stainless hollow braid from bow roller to winch. That provides shock absorber. 35 pound delta anchor on the roller. Allows you to anchor pretty much anywhere with big safety margin.
100 feet of 1/4 inch dyneema on the reel winch. That winch should pull that up even in 40 knot winds if it can winch a boat up onto a trailer.
Under sail the anchor gets secured to the roller and the winch assembly gets put in the anchor locker.
To anchor take the winch out and drop it into some type of mounting using the mast base plate.
Release the anchor and freewheel the winch till you have the scope out you need.
I thought about using ss cable but research indicated high risk of sudden failure.
So would the new high-tech lines be better?
Lets NOT discuss the obvious for most people anchor overkill. If I could get it up easily I would cruise with that size anchor just because of the places I sometimes hang out. Even the 25 is hard to retrieve sometimes.

Ixneigh

[Hamin' X]

Good way to snap hardware. Use a laid nylon rode. It acts as a shock absorber. You will sleep much better.

~Rich

[Divecoz]

I just dont ( haven't ever) seen the need for me to carry such a huge / extreme sized anchors. My one and only issue with dragging anchor, may well have been my fault, not my 15 lb. Manta /Claws fault. I now better understand how to set my anchor and I, use a snubber / shock cord on the anchor line.
The use of an electric winch, would no doubt be nice though, and if you really wanted to over come some of the issues? Why not use an electric boat winch.. ( pretty cheap under a $100).. meant to with-stand the elements..Issues come IMHO in where to mount the winch.. As with many desired mods, our boats have such limited space.. Could one of those be used as an open face winch? I have never really looked to see..Off Hand, I dont see why not..
This was my first sailboat.. all I ever had before were ski boats . You / I at-least, seldom need to anchor a ski boat for even a couple hours let alone overnight. I laugh a lot now when I see people using those all but usless undersized rubber coated navy style anchors .. with not near enough rode, line ,rope, whatever.. I learned along the way .. listening and reading. Now....ALL my anchors carry chain. My primary has 30 feet of it.
I dont think I ever anchored (in SW Fla.) in more than 10 feet of water, most often less.... most often much more than 6 feet of water puts you... In The Traffic..

[mastreb]

Dyneema has not replaced nylon as a rope material on boats because it has a very slippery feel and a very low co-efficient of friction. Lines rely on friction to remain knotted and cleated, so there'd be a real risk of unexpected knot failure. It would also be extremely difficult to pull up an anchor by hand if necessary--A winch would be a practical requirement.

It has very low elasticity compared to nylon or even manilla rope, and for a rode this would cause jerking, which is both unpleasant to the crew and increases the likelyhood of unsetting the anchor. Nylon is practically an ideal elastic for rodes.

It also floats, which could be an advantage in a lot of circumstances, especially as a tow rope or towed safety line. Towing a 100' dyneema rope would be an excellent safety measure for a single-hander who went overboard, as they'd be able to swim to the rope and then pull themselves along it to get back aboard. It's low friction co-efficient and resistance to water would create very little drag in this application.

But a floating anchor rode could be problematic, although I'm not certain this would be a significant problem.

Under tensile load, Dyneema also slowly deforms continuously, a factor called "creep". I don't know how much effect that would have on rope as the weave take a lot of stretch, but I'd expect it would slowly lengthen over time. For a rode that's likely not an issue, but it could be for a halyard. It is used in some high-end yachting applications where low-stretch and high tensile strength are needed, as in backstays, but it is not a general purpose replacement for all lines and sheets.

Matt

[Ixneigh]

Ok some facts about dyneema. Than you! I can see that idea is not practical.
So far as the extreme ground tackle goes. True huge overkill for most. Due to the bottom we have where I live the next size up from standard is used. I've yanked a 16 pound Bruce right out of the bottom on three occasions with my v222! I now anchor that on a 25 delta. That's what it takes here. So I figure my 26m should have the 35 pound.
We watched a beatiful passport 40 try repeatedly to set his cqr one windy day. I finally went and told him to anchor out by an island where I know there is better holding. He said he sailed from CA through the Canal and from there up to FL and never had a problem with it. They don't call it rock harbor for nothing I told him.

So my next hypothetical anchor puller


http://www.mauriprosailing.com/Lewmar-W ... 07302.html

Mount that right on the anchor locker lid. I will beef that up to take the load. The chain just goes inside. The motor part should fit under there too. The lid will still open to inspect and maintain the motor. It's less money then others I have seen.
The pull is marginal but I could help it with the engine if I had to. Figure 70 feet of 1/4 inch chain and a 35 delta.

[mastreb]

Looks pretty ideal! I think it's more than enough pull, considering that I can single hand my rode and I'm not pulling anything like 700 lbs. It's just going to take a little more time and patience than a heavier motor.

I like the idea of mounting it on the chain locker thus avoiding any watertight penetrations.

My first concern would be less about the fiberglass of the lid but the stress on the hinges and the latch. You'd want to make sure the latch put downward pressure on the lid so that the pulling forces are distributed evenly around the rim rather than concentrated on the hinges. Replacing just the latch with a levered push-down handle would do the trick.

I'm assuming you've measured the required 8" depth inside the locker? It seems to my memory to be about 6" deep, but I'm just guessing. If you do it, I'd like to hear how it goes and how you like it.

My second concern is the 45 amp draw you have to accommodate. You're talking about #6 AWG wire pair from the battery, which would be a 20' run. You're looking at a $100 in that cable alone. You'll have to figure out how and where you're going to run it if you intend to keep the chain locker open-able. I think I'd run it forward through the bilge, up the pinnacle of the bow, and then back to the chainlocker, penetrating the chain locker just below the lid on the port side between the hinges, with a small loop to keep it from tightening when the locker is opened.

Matt

[Ixneigh]

Yes Matt that is just what I thought about the wire. You have obviously given this a little thought and pretty much have described the project. I looked at the anchor locker and it's not quite deep enough. I can cut a hole in the bottom and seal it with fiberglass or make a slightly raised area to sit the windless body on. I think that would be better. I looked at one of these at west marine ands it's very low profile. I won't be able to afford to do this project for a while so I have plenty of time to think on it. But so far this is the only unit that not only fits on the tiny M fordeck but could actually look good and not interfere with sail handling.
It will cost, but my back is worth it. I have trouble pulling the 25 rocna when the wind gets over 20 knots. The M seems like it has as much wind resistance as my 33 foot yawl did.
So far as the hinges go my Idea was to use heavy duty piano hinge in place of the two that the boat came with. I think eventually I would do such anyway. Between the extra fasteners and a nice sensible latch like should be on there to begin with it should work ok.

[mastreb]

I would not penetrate the bottom of the chain locker. The chain locker can get really wet inside, and you don't want to create a leak up there.

You could kill all these birds with one stone by making a new chain-locker lid fabricated to accommodate the windlass specifically. This would allow you to make the lid as strong as necessary to accommodate the pulling forces. This would also allow you to remove the mod in the future to go back to stock if that's a concern. I'd then move the hinge to the aft of the triangle so that pulling forces are evenly distributed side-to-side.

The easiest way to fabricate the lid IMHO would be to build a triangular wooden frame form like a 45 degree angled picture frame with a 2" rise and a 3" hypotenuse to it. Mitre the top edges flat, mount that frame on a flat piece of plywood (doesn't need to be cut to shape), and you've got a fiberglass mold. Lay in the fiberglass, wet it out, and put the whole thing into a big freezer bag with shop-vac as the vacuum source and you've got your part.

With a 2" rise off the deck and a hinge moved to the aft, the anchor rode is essentially pulling down on the lid and forward on the boat at the hinge. That puts a lot of stress on the deck at the hinge. The better solution is to make the hinge a little loose so that the pulling force settles the lid forward and down along the forward angles of the anchor chain locker, a much larger surface with more inherent strength due to the angles in the fiberglass. The hinges are then only keeping the back of the lid from lifting, and they have a considerable leveraged advantage there. I think that design would be ideal. You will want to make sure that the lid has enough hump to it that the rode is pulling both forward and down when under strain if you decide to engineer it this way.

And hey, if it works, you've got a mold you can use to make parts for the rest of us who want to do this mod

Matt

[Highlander]

Actualy if you were to add a very strong hinged latch to the rear of the anchor locker lid so as it would attach to this forestay padeye that is re-enforced onto the deck with backing plate it would act as your anchor point for the anchor lid with some re-enforcement to th lid also ,


Just a thought
here it is installed its used for my storm jib forestay


J

[Ixneigh]

Great idea to make another locker lid out of fiberglass. Might consider doing that. I had wanted a simple off the shelf solution. Ill have to actually buy the unit and have it on the boat to look things over before i decide ultimately how to do it. I think the whole idea could solve a vexing problem nicely and elliminate one of the larger grunt tasks on the boat during daily use.
Anyone know how much a replacement locker lid would run? Might be more cost effective just to buy a replacement if i ever wanted to revert to oem condition.
Ie maybe sold the boat to someone who NEVER anchors or something

Ixneigh

[Highlander]

Just remember when selling a boat if the equip. is more than 5yrs old people do not want to pay addition money for it they figure it will just come with the boat anyway , so you maybe left with the option of removing it & selling it seperatly thats what I had to do with my fishing boat & am now doing with my , removing hardware that I can use on my & or sell to others to use on their Macs

I've already removed the lazy jacks & Garhauer blocks from my & installed them on my & reinstalled the original blocks back on my . sold the garhauer rigid vang from my to Beene on this site

yep people are funny they do not want to pay 3000# for equip. that is only two yrs old so remove the equip. sell it off seperatly drop the price of the boat by 3000# sell it to them then a couple of months later watch as they blow 7000# to buy new hardware that they could have got for less than half price that is made to last 25yrs anyway go figure !!

J

[mastreb]

yep people are funny they do not want to pay 3000# for equip. that is only two yrs old so remove the equip. sell it off seperatly drop the price of the boat by 3000# sell it to them then a couple of months later watch as they blow 7000# to buy new hardware that they could have got for less than half price that is made to last 25yrs anyway go figure !!

J

Quoted for truth. Before I bought my new, I looked at a couple of used, one of which was very well fit out with just about everything, including a full cockpit bimini cover and a Suzuki 70hp (it was a BWY). The owner wanted $36K, and I refused to square that with the $29K I could pay for a new one.

So of course I wound up spending 38K on my new boat when all was said and done and I've got fewer upgrades than the used one would have come with.

There's just no getting around the mental bias, even when you know it's not rational.

Matt

[Divecoz]

Jon / Highlander... Whos hatch and which model style and size did you use in the above photos??? and $$$$
We all know that windows are not walk ways but how do you feel about the integrity of that hatch?