so what is the ideal brake system?

[kevinnem]

I have been thinking (brooding) about this for a while. Reading about the success people seem to be having with up graded trailers. I thought some concerns might have been formed to guide people like me.

I think there is agreement that dual axel is better then single.

Material of trailer is budget, and weight determined.

BUT what about the brake system?

Drum, VS disk.

On only 2 wheels or all 4?

If 2, fronts, or rears?


Surge VS electric?



I found a company called "kodiak" that makes entirely stainless steel brakes assemblies, and they claim they are basically 100% anti corrosive with respect to water. anyone use these, or anything like that?

What about the "swing away" or extension tongues? ideas?

talk to you soon. PS there is some REALLY great reading in this area of the forum Thank all for your contributions.

[Boblee]

Probably been done to death before BUT IMHO
Duals better than single not for me.
Depending on use the standard trailer is the most economical because it's yours, if you need to replace it yep budget and weight depending on the tow vehicle too of course.
Discs in most instances are way better than drums especially on a boat trailer.
If four wheels your weight will be up near or above our 2 tonnes or 2000 kg and think it should be all four (applying brakes to two would?could be costly) but here think they have to be electric so drums.
Prefer surge over electric, electric brakes break.
I have driven many miles (thousands) with the brakes out of action unknowinly once with a little Hilux (USA name ?) and again with the truck and at no time did I feel unsafe but I do drive steady, note until I actually found the problem by other methods I didn't know the brakes were inoperative.

[Crikey]

What Bob said!

Disk versus drum any day of the year. Far less parts (for one thing) to deal with.
Four brakes is overkill as you still rely on the car doing the yeomans service for the coupled package. If sized correctly they will supply the appropriate level of required extra braking. Hydraulics generally leak before failing - Electrical usually fails totally.
I have also driven over a huge distance without the braking system properly functioning (to my knowledge) and gotten away with it only to be unpleasantly surprised when push came to shove. That's when everything needs to be covered.

Ross

[arknoah]

Wow. I would never have assumed that surge brakes were better than electric ones. Hmmm

[bscott]

Most boats/trailers in Colorado never see salt and are generally rust free. If you do alot of mountain driving, tandems with brakes all around are best. Agree that drums are better--cheaper to replace and repair. No need for stainless unless you are in salt. Surge over electric. Tandem brake location may be determined by province law. Front seem to be more effective for me although CO law sez both axles so that's what I have.

Bob

[bartmac]

In Australia at least,the magic number is 2000kg....anything over needs a breakaway system(expensive,complicated)....so the addition of an extra axle & springs etc would put you closer if not over the magic number....so at this stage Disc brakes on a single axle mechanically operated for simplicity..I guess the tow vehicle choice also would have bearing on the need to upgrade.

[Sumner]

We have 5 trailers and one of them has electric...



....brakes and the Mac trailer ....



...has surge disc brakes. I'll take the surge disc over the electrics any day and if they are going in the water then I wouldn't consider the electric at all or surge drum.

As has been mentioned far fewer parts to rust. Here is a picture of drums...



...that was posted on another board the other day...

http://forums.macgregor.sailboatowners. ... p?t=135998

...I believe that the brakes had been serviced not that long ago, look at the lining thickness, and the trailer has only been in fresh water. Lots of parts in there and it doesn't take long to start rusting those parts up. Disc are also easier and usually cheaper to service.

The electric can be ok obviously, but I find that the controller can maybe offer too many options as to how it is set. The surge are pretty much fool proof for any driver. The harder you brake the more they work. On the almost 5000 mile round trip to Florida they worked flawlessly the whole trip and stopping was almost like having no trailer back there, but still you don't want to be thinking that, brakes or no brakes.

You can convert or add surge discs for under $500 and close to $400 and as a bonus you will get new hubs and bearings in the deal. Most kits will also come with a wire to hook to your backup lights that will disable them any time you backup. At the ramp where you disconnect the trailer wiring they can be pinned so that they don't engage while baking up. Another advantage is you can haul a trailer with surge behind any tow vehicle that is capable and they will work since you don't need the electric controller or wiring that goes with it.

Get them and you will never regret it,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[Sumner]

Just noticed that the place we bought our brake kit from has a price right now under $400....

http://www.blackbearsportinggoods.com/P ... 1&click=12

....for the complete kit. That is about what we paid them a couple years ago, but I've seen prices around $430 since, so their prices do fluctuate,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[Sea Wind]

If you are thinking in adding a second axle and converting to disk brakes then you are in the same situation that I was almost a year ago and I got a tandem trailer which I am extremely happy with. One thing that is important to know is that most states require brakes on every axle, at the end it might be a decision based on how comfortable you feel with your tow beast.
Also, disks over drums over electric for these boats is my opinion and ss brakes if often used on saltwater
sea wind

[seahouse]

Hey Kevin!

Drum brakes are a long-outdated, inferior technology, and exist on modern vehicles purely for reasons of economy. I haven’t noticed drums on the front (where most of the braking is done) of an economy car in years, and they are now even rare in the rear of modern entry-level cars.

They do have a larger friction surface contact area (shoes vs. pads) and take advantage of the servo effect (applied force is amplified by their geometry), but are susceptible to fade (overheating and drum expanding away from the pads), poor maintenance, and dirt and water accumulation. But modern design features of discs and calipers (along with numerous other big advantages) more than offset these small advantages of drums.

Having said that, the reality might be that the boat you want comes with a trailer that has drums already on it, in which case, I think it’s a good thing to be aware of their shortcomings, even though they might, as already mentioned, not be as readily apparent as they would be if on a car. Until it’s too late, if you’re unlucky.

Cast iron discs have better heat-dissipating and surface friction qualities than stainless steel, but stainless steel’s resistance to corrosion might outweigh these advantages in a boat-trailer’s operating environment. (Stainless steel is a really bad conductor of heat, as anyone who has welded it will attest).

Electrically-controlled brakes have their advantages too (they are adjustable, and can be adjusted on the fly), but I think surge brakes are well-suited on a boat trailer, and on a boat the size and weight of our Macs.

The tongue of a Mac M (X?) doesn’t extend very far past the bow, and you can slide the mast along to suit, but you won’t gain that much with a swinging tongue (unless you’re a hot dog). Although it might be that 2 feet is all that you need to close the door in your storage space.

- Brian.

[Boblee]

Had a few sets of brakes on a camping trailer, the first two fell apart and I sold the trailer before the last set did but they were a heavier unit and had been working longer, probably not applicable to the Mac trailer as went off road or on really bad roads regularly, the Mac trailer has been on some bad roads but nothing like the other one.
Re the surge brakes and reversing most? aust couplings have a flip over lever that blocks the coupling so you can reverse but you can forget it easily both ways also good is the handbrake system which is much better than the original one also much better to bleed too.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/120607714507 ... 1423.l2649

[Tomfoolery]

I think there is agreement that dual axel is better then single.

Put me down for dual-axle. My original steel trailer had a second axle added (by the PO), with the original moved forward, and very light tongue load, but it tows nice and straight with very little feeling of sway. I've heard of others with dual-axle trailer and similar experiences. I also like that the tires are now much higher rated than actually required (load range C), since they're relatively lightly loaded. Suspension is too heavy at 3500 lb on the new axle, and probably well over 4000 lb on the original, based on leaf count and thickness, but I'll modify that this spring once the boat is in the water. Equalized suspension goes a long way toward mitigating that, however.

Material of trailer is budget, and weight determined.

The extra axle adds a few hundred pounds, I would think, but (to me) the added weight is worth it.

Drum, VS disk.

Disc. I'll never go back to drums if I don't have to.

On only 2 wheels or all 4?

I took the (beyond shot) drum brakes off all four wheels, and put disc on one axle only. The trailer was designed for 3500 lb max. gross weight, though I'm probably around 4000 lb as equipped (hardly anything on board), so I thought I'd try it with just one axle and see how it works. It's been fine so far.

If 2, fronts, or rears?

Mine are on the rear axle, because the equalizer tends to push that axle down (and the front one up) when the brake torque is applied to the axle. Most OEM manufacturers put them on the front axle, but one axle manufacturer plainly specifies they be put on the rear when equalized leaf spring suspensions are used, for the reason given. With independent suspension, it wouldn't make any difference, and in either case, there is no weight transfer from braking like there is in a car since the angle of the trailer to the ground can't change unless the tow hitch droops under braking, which it shouldn't since the tow vehicle is nose-diving and the rear is trying to go up, and the axles are equalized any way (with leaf springs, at least).

Surge VS electric?

I like surge. Doesn't matter what vehicle I tow it with - it still works, with no other connection to the vehicle.

I found a company called "kodiak" that makes entirely stainless steel brakes assemblies, and they claim they are basically 100% anti corrosive with respect to water. anyone use these, or anything like that?

Kodiak, Tie Down, Titan - pick your poison. I got a disc brake kit from etrailer (Titan) for just under $400, with a reverse lockout solenoid, and it's been fine. SS usually has a lower coefficient of friction in braking than CI, but that just means the coupler will push a little harder against the tow vehicle to get the same amount of braking torque at the axle. If you need SS for corrosion prevention, then go for it. I;m in fresh water only, so 'standard' components are good enough for me.

http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Brakes/ ... 43100.html

[Catigale]

and they claim they are basically 100% anti corrosive with respect to water.

No such animal. You will still need to flush these, but they will last longer than standard brakes or plated.

[raycarlson]

for long haul towing nothing beats stability of dual axles, also if your a diy nothing beats simplicity of surge disc's, i have them on front axle only as with torsion suspension it makes no difference.stainless steel is also referred to as corrosion resistant steel key word being resistant not to be confused with proof.anything with a percent or two of carbon is going to corrode eventually. my only gripe with the surge brakes is towing downhill in steep mountains, short of disabling them what else can you do to keep from smoking them????

[Sumner]

..my only gripe with the surge brakes is towing downhill in steep mountains, short of disabling them what else can you do to keep from smoking them????

Ok I hope in a year or two I can answer this after more experience, but for now I'll throw the following out. How often are you on a steep enough grade for long enough that you will actually get them that hot?

Since we have owned the Mac and towed it close to 9,000 miles we have only been in that situation twice. Granted 4000-5000 miles of the 9,000 was towing from Utah to Florida where we only encountered 'real' grades in Utah and New Mexico and had no problems on this trip with the trailer after upgrading to the second axle with surge discs. The grade from the east on I40 down into Albuq, NM is long and steep and no problems. Likewise with the grades from Albq. over to Gallup, NM.

The 4000 miles or so we trailed around the west up into Canada and back with one axle and no brakes we did encounter a number of grades and 2 were/are really bad. The first bad one was on Highway 3 in Canada going to Kootenay over the highest pass on that highway at I think 6000 feet or so. Not that high in elevation, but the elevation change in a fairly short distance is what makes it a killer. I think it dropped almost 3000 feet going west in if I remember right a continuous grade of 6 to 8 miles with turns that required that you kept it under 50 mph. I tried using the auto transmission to keep the speed down and about half way down smelled something. The auto was getting hot. We pulled into a pull out and let things cool down. Then I didn't use the auto the rest of the way down but the brakes. I was lucky in that we didn't damage the transmission.

Then going home we dropped down the 'big' hill into Lewiston, ID that has a number of runaway truck ramps on it. I never pulled over and again you have to keep the speed under 50 for the switchbacks and only used the Suburbans brakes. By the time we hit the bottom they smelled real bad, but I've never had problems with them since.

On both of those hills I would of loved to of had the trailer brakes even if they would of gotten hot. A lot cheaper to replace pads on those than a transmission or losing the tow vehicle brakes. Also on both grades there were places to pull out, so if the trailer brakes were hot then we could of pulled over for 10 minutes or so. Doing that twice wouldn't of impacted our on the road time that much for the total trip.

Of course you can pin the brakes out, but that would defeat having them. The same if they were electric. You could turn the in-cab controller down, then there again what is cheaper putting pads on the trailer brakes or working on the tow vehicle.

Since the surge only apply according to the load, which is the pressure between the trailer and the tow vehicle I don't think they are going to be applied that hard in most instances. I'm sure somewhere you could cook them, but I'll take that over a new transmission or loosing the tow vehicle brakes,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

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